Waah

[swatkat]

Every now and then, posts discussing 'Why doesn't het work for you?' pop up on LJ. There is discussion. And invariably, there are commenters stating that they prefer slash because 'slash (boyslash) is generally better written than het'. And that? Makes my blood boil. I speak, admittedly, from my limited experience, which does not consist of any of the legendary boyslash fandoms (say, due South)*. But I've hung around in fandoms that have a large amount of both boyslash and het, and I read all kinds of fic, so when someone claims that of all the het ships in, say, the HP fandom, of all the giant freaking archives and all the fic being written, the boyslash is 'generally' better-written (what does 'generally' even mean? are there statistics?) than the het, I have to ask: seriously? See, when I first found the House fandom, it was a relatively new fandom, still growing, still small, and the main ship was (is) House/Wilson. All the rec sites contained House/Wilson. And I love House/Wilson, but what I really wanted was to read fic about Cuddy. I went around asking for recs, and I'd be pointed to the same three stories - which were very good, but I wanted more. So I started looking. Digging through archives and ff.net and recs sites. And you know what? I *found* fic. So when someone says that they can't find the good het, I'm tempted to think that maybe they didn't *look* properly. And you know, it's okay, not to look. If your priority is boyslash, and you can't be arsed to trawl through crap in ff.net in order to find that one good het fic, don't. No one's asking you to. But please, please don't say that you don't read het because it's 'generally' badly-written - say you don't read it because it doesn't work for you, because you like slash more, because you don't want to. Het fen aren't Fandom Police. They aren't going to make you sit and force you to read their fic if you say that it's not your thing.

Of course, because I'm crabby today, I have a complaint against het fen as well - *why* are they so poorly organised? Look at the boyslashers. Look how organised they are, how they come up with good, navigable sites and rec lists (please spare me the 'recs are elitist' stuff) every time they move into a new fandom. *That* is why all I found only House/Wilson when I started looking for Housefic. The girlslashers got together and founded femslash_today. Het fen on the other hand post in the obscure corners of ff.net and their own badly designed websites, with light font on dark or, god forbid, light font on light**. And then they wonder why some people say there is no good het fic out there. Newsflash: they probably weren't looking very hard, but you didn't make the effort to be found, and the ones who did find you probably ran away with tears streaming down their face.

Sigh. I think I've been reading too many of those OTW is stupid and evil posts.

* What is it like in these fandoms? Enlighten me, O flist. Am I being too harsh?
** This is largely hyperbole. Some of it *is* true, though.

ETA: OMG people mina_de_malfois is back! OMG *dies* (there might be SPOILERS in comments, so beware)

Comments

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

GOD I WANT TO DO A POST ON HOW MUCH I HATE THE SLASH MEME

...Sorry. Yeah. It's just been boiling over for years and only recently been verbalized, and I've just got to pull it together.

I...have been in a bunch of legendary boyslash fandoms, and I will say that it can be damn hard to find hetfic sometimes, let alone good hetfic. But those people have their cause and effect totally backwards, also, at least some of them are lying, albeit unconsciously. If you are looking for romancefic in a legendary boyslash fandom, the odds are very high that you were drawn by one of the boyslash pairings in the first place. Which. Well. (I'm talking about truly scary fandoms, like Saiyuki, Master & Commander [which I HAVE found good hetfic for, thankyou], and Star Trek TOS.)

It's bullshit. Really.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I...have been in a bunch of legendary boyslash fandoms, and I will say that it can be damn hard to find hetfic sometimes, let alone good hetfic

Hmm, so I suppose the 'generally' is more applicable in these fandoms?

If you are looking for romancefic in a legendary boyslash fandom, the odds are very high that you were drawn by one of the boyslash pairings in the first place.

Exactly. And hey, it's your thing. Guilty defences are unnecessary.

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, more so. But like I said, the rest of the defense doesn't hold up well.

I don't care if it's your thing. (Well, I do, but that's...a really iffy issue that I have to deal with in the aforementioned post/essay, so I'm not mucking around with it here.) But people feel the need to defend themselves because they want to be original, when in truth they're prolly just infected with a meme. *shrugs* Not that that's a bad thing, you know? But yeah.

[shutterbug-12.livejournal.com]

When I first got into the House fandom (about six or seven months ago), I went fic-hunting and, like you, the first ones I found were House/Wilson. All. Over. The. Place. And, you know, that's fine, but I thought, "Well, House and Wilson aren't the only main characters on the show and there must be stories that feature the others, but...where are they?" And it took me months to dig up decent stuff that centered on other characters, other pairings.

My opinions about slash have changed recently. Well, more accurately, my opinions about House and Wilson have changed. I used to enjoy reading slash House/Wilson stories, where they're a couple, or fuck-buddies, or whatever. Now, I may read one of those every now and then, especially if it's written by a certain author that I have grown to like a lot, but, when it comes to those two characters, I much prefer reading friendship stories. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "slash" but, in my brain, it doesn't.

That leaves het. I love it. I write it. I read it. Plus, in the context of relationships on the show, it just makes more sense to me. It's a real stretch of the imagination for me to believe that House and Wilson have ever or will ever become sexually involved and the feasibility of situations is a part of what makes a story appeal to me, but...I'm getting off track.

Het. I think, in the House fandom, it's unfair to say that all het is poorly written and slash is generally of a better quality. I've read some terrible slash. I've read some amazing het. And vice versa. I suspect that het may get a bad rap in this fandom because there are legions of House/Cameron stories out there that have nothing but oh-so-poorly written het. It seems so much is written by young girls who swipe their mothers' trashy romance novels and use them as their basis. That's no good. I find most of the really well written het circles around House/Cuddy and House/Stacy. (I'm a little biased, but I think I'm a pretty good judge of the quality of writing and I'm trying to be as objective as possible here.) Those writers seem more mature and have a better command of language (for whatever reason).

But it annoys me as well when people feel that het isn't well-written. I think if slash or het avoids those standard cliches and portrays things honestly (with good use of language, etc.), then it should be fine and worth a read. If it doesn't appeal to you, that's an entirely different story. But, I agree, having this idea that it won't be written well, just because it's het, isn't really a good reason.

/super long reply

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

And it took me months to dig up decent stuff that centered on other characters, other pairings.

Same here.

Plus, in the context of relationships on the show, it just makes more sense to me. It's a real stretch of the imagination for me to believe that House and Wilson have ever or will ever become sexually involved and the feasibility of situations is a part of what makes a story appeal to me, but...I'm getting off track.

I don't particularly care if a ship is feasible in canon (I've written Foreman/Cuddy and Chase/Cuddy!), as long as it works in fic. *g*

I wouldn't blame the House/Cameron fic - there's some really great stuff out there, by authors like _vicodin and fated_addiction (and these are only the names I know. I don't read much of it). And a lot of HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE House/Cuddy (examples (http://swatkat24.livejournal.com/112155.html)). It's a matter of preference – if you *want* a pairing, and it has been written, you will find it, you know? So when someone comes along and says 'but the slash in this fandom is better written' when I *know* there's so much good het and so much crappy slash out there, I want to hit something.

[shutterbug-12.livejournal.com]

I don't particularly care if a ship is feasible in canon (I've written Foreman/Cuddy and Chase/Cuddy!), as long as it works in fic. It doesn't have to completely comply with canon, but I can't get into stories that have pairings that I don't feel would work, considering their characters. I think that's completely a matter of personal preference, though. This is different, though, from my ideas of canon pairings versus fanon pairings. In canon, for example, I'd prefer House alone, ultimately. Sure, let him have a one night stand or a crush, whatever. But I prefer it to end up as just him, his Vicodin, and his lonely, sad little life. That's my OTP. LOL (Of course, if there was any way for Stacy to come back and live happily ever after, great, but I cannot imagine a world where that is, in any way, possible or believable.) In fanon, I love reading stories where a relationship thrives between him and Cuddy, or even him and Wilson (though, as I said earlier, it's not really my cup of tea like it used to be). More rambling. My goodness. Sorry. Anyway...

Those two authors really are great. You're totally right. (And, wow, those examples made me cringe. I usually stay far, far away from kid!fics.) I've just found, that in all of my hunting around, that there is more quality stories surrounding House and Cuddy. I've read a lot - it's really an unhealthy amount - and I have to work a lot harder, it seems, to find good Cameron-centric stories than any other kind. Maybe it's just me.

[thirdblindmouse.livejournal.com]

The incessant "why slash", "why not het", and so forth are why metafandom is off my flist. It's not that these things don't deserve discussion, but they don't deserve the same discussion over and over every four months on a regular cycle, someone always popping up with genius sayings like "all slash written > het".

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Hee. Fannish discussions have cycles. All this has happened before; all this will happen again. *g*

[nestra.livejournal.com]

someone always popping up with genius sayings like "all slash written > het".

Or "het is better than slash because it doesn't violate the canon." Or "gen is the best because it's harder to write than stories that are just romance."

I feel, shockingly, that everyone should read what they like.

[zulu]

What I love most about me--and, oh man, I bet you were just waiting to hear this--is that I am not a pairing-snob, I am not a genre-snob; I am a writing snob. I will read anyone with anyone (or anything, or SAD AND ALONE, or how you like) as long as it's well-written.

Result? I don't trust the comms at all--I don't watch them. And I rely on other people to do the trawling and the recs, and then after that I find what I like. And this totally works for me.

Hm, this may not have been your point. But it's where my brain went.

Um. Girlslash! Yay!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I will read anyone with anyone (or anything, or SAD AND ALONE, or how you like) as long as it's well-written.

Me too! Me too!

It's not that I trust the comms, but I have to watch them. You do not know, Zulu - there was a time when I did not know you and roga and so many other fabulous people in the flist, when house_notice was the only newsletter*, when you would be lucky to find one non-H/W (or House/Cameron) fic a day and you discovered that all of the fannish activity was happening in ff.net... Sigh.

YAY girlslash!

* It has good taste. But that's also a con when you want MOAR FIC.

[hihoplastic.livejournal.com]

99% of the time, when I'm looking for good stuff, I go to your del.icio.us. I don't know ANYTHING about the HouseWilson part of the fandom, but I trust your taste in fic, so. When I crave slash, that is where I go.

Oh, ugh. I'm really tired of people rec'ing "the same three fics" as you say. Because I think I know what those fics are and frankly... oy. OY.

Don't suppose you'd be up to making a rec list site with me? Something that has good quality fic of all pairings? *shrugs* Just a thought.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh, ugh. I'm really tired of people rec'ing "the same three fics" as you say. Because I think I know what those fics are and frankly... oy. OY.

That would be the fourth fic. The first three were actually good. *g*

Don't suppose you'd be up to making a rec list site with me? Something that has good quality fic of all pairings? *shrugs* Just a thought.

jaybee65 and I have been trying to do something like that with wehave_nolife, though I admit we don't plan on reccing too much boyslash (well, except rare pairings. and occasional House/Wilson too, because how can you resist that?).

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

There are a few interesting links on today's metafandom about the proportions of slash versus het versus gen and whether it varies based on the type of fandom. Having read them, I think you raise a good point about the level of organization of slash fans working to their advantage. I'd like to see similar organization for hetfic as well, but I think any attempt to do so will probably trigger wankstorms of one kind or another -- because people may be perceived as antislash and therefore homophobic, because shipwars may break out, etc.

Actually, what I'd *really* like to see organized is the gen side of fandom, but that'll never happen in large part because no one, apparently, can even agree what gen *is*. *Sigh*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Slashfen, I think, are more organised because they've traditionally been the oppressed ones. Kicked out of this archive and banned from that, hounded in this messageboard and mocked at that - they have had more reason to be organised. Het fen are... complacent.

There is some organisation in the gen parts of House fandom, but that is again more of the House&Wilson variety. There have been some efforts to organise HP gen in LJ, as well.

[jetamors.livejournal.com]

I can kind of almost see where they're coming from, because I like gen and het and gen-with-het-mixed-in, but what I really love the most is het that's written like slash (or certain kinds of slash). It's not something I can really define, but I know it when I see it. And so I can see how people who are looking (consciously or unconsciously) for that particular aesthetic in their fanfic would be turned off by a lot of het.

It still makes me roll my eyes, though. Personal preference != objective fact.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

but what I really love the most is het that's written like slash (or certain kinds of slash)

I think I know what you mean. Het that does not fall into submissive female/dominant male tropes, het that has power dynamics akin to the 'who tops?' dynamic in a lot of m/m - am I right? One of my earliest fandoms was La Femme Nikita, where the two main pairings, Michael/Nikita and Madeline/Operations were as 'slashy' as it gets. That's the kind of fic I've 'grown up' reading, and that's the kind of het I seek out everywhere, so I find it very disturbing when people ascribe that dynamic to slash alone. Maybe it's just different fannish backgrounds that leads to these different definitions.

[chrysantza.livejournal.com]

I hate generalizations like that, too! There's good het and bad het...good slash and bad slash...also good genfic and bad genfic (though with genfic, the fact that romance is not the main focus OFTEN, not always, makes the writers try harder).

Methinks too many people judge entire genres by what is on ff.net. That's like saying all seafood is bad because you hate fish sticks.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

It's often made to defend your reading choices, which is something you shouldn't have to do in fandom. It's fandom!

[ms-artisan.livejournal.com]

invariably, there are commenters stating that they prefer slash because 'slash (boyslash) is generally better written than het'

Kind of odd, that. How does subject = quality of writing?

Me? As you know, I read, write and enjoy (pretty much exclusively) m/m slash*. And yes, there's crappy m/m slash out there too. Really crappy. Spork out my eyeballs crappy.

But despite the fact that (or maybe because) I live in a house of two girls, I like boys in my fic, and two boys are better than one. So m/m rulz. :)

* I read a really good het SGA fic today though. Just saying...

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

But despite the fact that (or maybe because) I live in a house of two girls, I like boys in my fic, and two boys are better than one. So m/m rulz. :)

As uncomplicated as that! It was the convoluted 'no, no, you see, i read boyslash because all the het is bad' responses that prompted this rant. Argh.

There is het in SGA fandom? I thought it was all about John and Rodney...

[ms-artisan.livejournal.com]

As uncomplicated as that!

Me = simple.

Thanks to the latest ep, Ronon/Keller is all the rage. Honest. ;)

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Hee. Ronon v. pretty. Prettier, in fact, than John and Rodney. Not sure who Keller is, though.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Heh. I know *exactly* which metafandomed post you mean. It was totally fine until the casual aside about most het-fic sucking.

And the whole 'ick' factor *is* an interesting discussion.

For me, right now, I do get a bit of a lip curl at m/m. Not because of the boys, exactly - but because of the absence of women.

For me, right now, if a media source doesn't have strong women as major, recurring characters/protagonists - I flip the channel (which means I don't care one way or another about the fic for boy heavy sources... because I don't have any attachment to the sources in the first place).

And in the fic for the sources I do like because of having one or more major female characters, if the fic doesn't feature those women, I don't want to read it. It's not so much of an "ick" as it is an "ugh - no girls, where's my girls..." reaction, but that's a pretty fine distinction for an instantaneous response! Even when I do try to read it out of lib guilt for not liking the m/m - I don't like it. The emotional and/or sexual journeys of a bunch of men who are the top of their game in terms of power and privilege make my eyes glaze over. Because they *never* loose their power or privilege- even when engaging in what may be forbidden or dangerous romantic adventures.

I seem to have actually lost my ability to identify strongly with male protagonists.... especially the heroes of media fandom!

I'm sure its related- I'm having a LOT of trouble reading most male authors these days too - with the lone exception of TPrachett. Their stuff just doesn't hold my interest. So - who's to say if it's 'well-written' or not? If I toss it aside because it bores me, is that because it was 'badly written' or because my head space isn't open to that kind of fiction right now?

On the other hand I am reading a fair amount of scifi/fantasy romance overlap - which does hold my interest because the central characters are all women. Is it 'well written' because it holds my interest?


Bah.

(on the other hand - it *is* quite interesting how the tenor and POV on the perennial slash discussion has shifted over the years....)

N

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Heh. I know *exactly* which metafandomed post you mean. It was totally fine until the casual aside about most het-fic sucking.

Hee. Yes. It was very interesting, actually. Then there was that comment. ARGH.

It appears that for many fen, slash is easier to read because while reading het they find themselves comparing themselves with the women, or identifying too closely. It's very interesting. I don't read that way - when I'm reading, say, a Faith pov story, I'm reading it from her POV, not comparing her with me or seeing myself in her. I also have absolutely no problem objectifying hot women, so yeah.

I love m/m, with the right boys (who generally have women around them in their world). But I get what you're saying about the absence of women. I like having women in my stories. I need to have women in my stories. It's a very long story, so I'll not go into details, but that's how I trained myself a very long time ago, and now I simply am not interested in stories that don't have women in them. It's not that I can't identify with male characters - but usually, I don't want to. I won't take the trouble of looking at the source text in the first place. *Especially* in fannish things.

Pterry is awesome. He can write men, women, werewolves, vampires, dwarfs, elves, Nobby...

(Speaking of awesome women, if you don't watch BSG, this should be next on your list after you're done with Buffy/Angel. The female cast in this show is just *spectacular*. Better than the male cast, actually. Starbuck will be your OTC, of course - but this is one show where it's difficult to have an OTC.)