Sunday night ramblings
Oct. 3rd, 2004 11:07 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
swatkatOy! LFNers? Won't someone please go over to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
ship_manifesto and sign up for writing a Michael/Nikita essay? And a Paul/Madeline one? (Madeline/Nikita, George/Adrian, Michael/Jurgen, etc would be nice too, but I suppose that would be too much to ask for) Please? You'll enjoy it! Do this for your fandom! *tempts*
Speaking ofship_manifesto, this is one cool comm. I've been reading many of the essays, and I have to say that they've helped me get started with pairings I've always been interested in, but didn't know where to get started. Now I'm waiting for the Harry/Hermione essay on Oct 14th – here's hoping this will contain *some* good recs. *crosses fingers* I've already been disappointed by the Snape/Hermione essay, which, despite being an excellent essay by itself (she nails the reasons that could bring them together), recs only the most popular fics in the ship. And knowing this ship, well... (will try some of the recs, though)
Hmm. I wonder if they have a Remus/Hermione essay coming up as well? *g*
Some other interesting essays were:
Buffy/Angel: This is essay is very, very well-written – very passionate, and conveys the nature of their relationship just right. Buffy/Angel also reminds me of Michael/Nikita in a way. *sighs*
Snape/Lupin: Great pairing. There's also a good deal of links for starters.
Andromeda/Bellatrix: Oh, I really like this pairing! Of course, it's Blackcest, so you can stay away if it squicks you. It's got a couple of good fics recced – take note,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jaybee65.
Harry/Ron/Hermione: I'd read this pairing, I really, truly would. But. So. Much. Smut! *headdesk*
Remus/Sirius: What, does this even need an explanation? Has a great list of recs.
Wes/Fred: Ah, Wes/Fred, how I love thee! I rooted for them even when Fred/Gunn was common, and as much as I love Wes/Lilah, this pairing rocks!
Wes/Lilah: I've always wanted to read Wes/Lilah, and am definitely going to follow the recs. I'm afraid that there'll be a lot of smut, but I'm sure I'll manage.
Buffy/Faith: Oh, I think this could be my BtVS OTP! *rubs hands together in glee*
Hmm. With so many interesting girls in BtVS/AtS, there should a lot of good femmeslash around, right? *ponders*
I also read the John/Aeryn essay, because some of you talk about it so much – not so much impressed by the essay itself, but the pairing sounds great. *g*
I have also decided that I really, really like Faith as a character, and am going to read a lot of Faith fics in the future.
Also, The Critically Constructive Feedback Project. Check it out.
ship_manifesto and sign up for writing a Michael/Nikita essay? And a Paul/Madeline one? (Madeline/Nikita, George/Adrian, Michael/Jurgen, etc would be nice too, but I suppose that would be too much to ask for) Please? You'll enjoy it! Do this for your fandom! *tempts*Speaking of
ship_manifesto, this is one cool comm. I've been reading many of the essays, and I have to say that they've helped me get started with pairings I've always been interested in, but didn't know where to get started. Now I'm waiting for the Harry/Hermione essay on Oct 14th – here's hoping this will contain *some* good recs. *crosses fingers* I've already been disappointed by the Snape/Hermione essay, which, despite being an excellent essay by itself (she nails the reasons that could bring them together), recs only the most popular fics in the ship. And knowing this ship, well... (will try some of the recs, though)Hmm. I wonder if they have a Remus/Hermione essay coming up as well? *g*
Some other interesting essays were:
Buffy/Angel: This is essay is very, very well-written – very passionate, and conveys the nature of their relationship just right. Buffy/Angel also reminds me of Michael/Nikita in a way. *sighs*
Snape/Lupin: Great pairing. There's also a good deal of links for starters.
Andromeda/Bellatrix: Oh, I really like this pairing! Of course, it's Blackcest, so you can stay away if it squicks you. It's got a couple of good fics recced – take note,
jaybee65.Harry/Ron/Hermione: I'd read this pairing, I really, truly would. But. So. Much. Smut! *headdesk*
Remus/Sirius: What, does this even need an explanation? Has a great list of recs.
Wes/Fred: Ah, Wes/Fred, how I love thee! I rooted for them even when Fred/Gunn was common, and as much as I love Wes/Lilah, this pairing rocks!
Wes/Lilah: I've always wanted to read Wes/Lilah, and am definitely going to follow the recs. I'm afraid that there'll be a lot of smut, but I'm sure I'll manage.
Buffy/Faith: Oh, I think this could be my BtVS OTP! *rubs hands together in glee*
Hmm. With so many interesting girls in BtVS/AtS, there should a lot of good femmeslash around, right? *ponders*
I also read the John/Aeryn essay, because some of you talk about it so much – not so much impressed by the essay itself, but the pairing sounds great. *g*
I have also decided that I really, really like Faith as a character, and am going to read a lot of Faith fics in the future.
Also, The Critically Constructive Feedback Project. Check it out.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-10-03 10:26 pm (UTC)I checked the comm out when it got a brief appearance on F_W, it seems like a really interesting idea.
I also skimmed the John/Aeryn essay. It's more plot overview than pairing defense/explanation - are the other essays like that too?
no subject
Date: 2004-10-04 12:03 am (UTC)No time to read the Andromeda/Bellatrix one yet, but I look forward to that.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-04 03:31 am (UTC)I also skimmed the John/Aeryn essay. It's more plot overview than pairing defense/explanation - are the other essays like that too?
Nope. The good essays are plot overview as well as explanation - why *I* think this pairing works well, why I think these two characters are/would be drawn together, etc. The other ones I've linked above are quite good.
Swatkat
YAY!
Date: 2004-10-04 03:39 am (UTC)I'm not sure. You could comment on that thread, or mail the mod. But. Pleasepleaseplease write! Do you want me to comment/mail the mod for you?
The A/B essay is quite good, but you should really check out the links given below. I read a couple of stories which were quite good, and I intend to follow the rest of the links as well. Now I'm waiting for the other pairings I'm interested in to come up.
Swatkat
Re: YAY!
Date: 2004-10-04 05:13 am (UTC)Of course, given the small size of the fandom and even tinier size of this particular 'ship, there will probably be a grand total of 3 people who read it. LOL. Nevertheless, I'll try to "represent" as best I can.
W00t!
Date: 2004-10-04 11:16 am (UTC)Swatkat
Double Yah!!!!
Date: 2004-10-04 12:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-04 12:06 pm (UTC)Odd, yes, but also quite interesting too, don't you think?
Mmmm
Date: 2004-10-04 01:18 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Re: Mmmm
Date: 2004-10-04 02:43 pm (UTC)I've never heard of the chick - http://www.livejournal.com/users/gwyn_r/
Here's her website: http://www.drizzle.com/~gwyneth/
Doesn't look like she has ever written in LFN, or at least she doesn't claim it now, and she does some vidding.
She appears to be a big Spike/Buffy girl....which could make her essay on the canon OTP Michael and Nikita interesting. But she doesn't link to any LFN sites, which makes me wonder what in the world she plans to recc.
This will be interesting....only, she doesn't appear to actually be on the schedule anywhere. ?
Re: YAY!
Date: 2004-10-04 02:48 pm (UTC)I alaways am, when LFN comes on F_W how many people are like, "oh yeah - I really liked that show...."
I don't know *why* I'm surprised given my own ongoing fascination, but, yeah - I am. LOL!
N
Heh
Date: 2004-10-04 02:53 pm (UTC)Me too. There are *so many* out there on LJ, people who come out and ask, "Isn't that Michael from LFN?", and sigh nostalgic sighs...
Swatkat
Hmm
Date: 2004-10-04 02:55 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Re: Hmm
Date: 2004-10-04 03:03 pm (UTC)I just copied this from the "Master List" Page.
La Femme Nikita
Madeline/Operations -- jaybee65
Nikita/Michael -- gwyn_r
The schedule is really full, I may just be having trouble finding qwyn_r in the mass.
But it isn't in the memories section, so I don't think it's been written yet either.
N
no subject
Date: 2004-10-04 03:05 pm (UTC)It could be that you missed - that page is pretty crowded. I'll go take a look.
Swatkat
Just checked...
Date: 2004-10-04 03:18 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Re: Heh
Date: 2004-10-04 05:29 pm (UTC)I think LFN may be sort of a "secondary" show for a lot of people -- something they liked a lot, but not enough to join the fandom.
Re: Just checked...
Date: 2004-10-04 05:30 pm (UTC)If her essay does get posted, we'll all have to jump in on the thread if she does a less than good job with recs.
Yes
Date: 2004-10-04 05:34 pm (UTC)I think LFN may be sort of a "secondary" show for a lot of people -- something they liked a lot, but not enough to join the fandom.
Or people who had drifted by, took one look at the insane RD-squee and sappy M/N fic that drowns the good stuff, and ran right away. *sigh*
Swatkat
Yes definitely...
Date: 2004-10-04 05:37 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Re: Yes
Date: 2004-10-04 06:13 pm (UTC)I still owe you a N/Ma story as "payment" for that icon you did for me! I'd totally forgotten! *Smacks forehead* Let me get on that ASAP.
(Psst... which comm? Has it HP too? And BtVS? I want to look for Buffy/Faith, you see)
I'll have to check which comm...it's been a while since I went there. They had a little bit of everything, but as it turned out far too much RPS for my taste, so I stopped reading.
Buffy/Faith, huh? I wish I liked BtVS better as a show, because it *is* very femslash-friendly. The writing on the show was clever, but too "snarky American teen" for my taste. I really do prefer older characters. *Sigh*
Forgot to mention
Date: 2004-10-04 06:15 pm (UTC)That's a *very* good point. The makeup of the fandom may be somewhat self-perpetuating because of that -- someone would have to go to an effort to create a permanent space for slash, for example, and I'm not sure anyone is determined and dedicated enough to hang in there long enough to attract supporters.
Re: Just checked...
Date: 2004-10-04 06:26 pm (UTC)Oh dear --
Date: 2004-10-04 06:28 pm (UTC)N
no subject
Date: 2004-10-04 06:40 pm (UTC)I didn't want to say this on the thread there, but I think stories with that "pairing" don't need the sexual content whatsoever to work perfectly well. They're sisters in a family where "family" means a *lot*, so they already have a profound bond and strong feelings about each other that would make great material for stories. You don't need to throw in sexual attraction as an excuse to provoke those emotions the way you do with many other pairings.
But because I am very interested in the possibilities of their relationship with each other, I'll put up with the incest if that's the only way stories will get written. LOL.
Re: Oh dear --
Date: 2004-10-04 06:43 pm (UTC)I'll be quite curious to see what she writes.
Re: Just checked...
Date: 2004-10-04 06:45 pm (UTC)Was ranma's smaller than the other one during the early seasons? That might explain it.
Re: Just checked...
Date: 2004-10-04 07:03 pm (UTC)I think they stopped updating/accepting new stories after the first couple of years and just maintained it after about 1998...
And Ranma started out just archieiving the stories posted to Susan Hargrove's MB, then when she broke off the first story boards....though now Ranma would happily take anything LFN related, I believe.
The thing is, for all my sensation of drowning in LFN fanfic, the story boards were so active, and Ranma's already so large, when I first started in (which was during S1, so it's hard to believe I missed the first few boats, but apparently I did....) - I never learned about how many other places people posted stories until much later, when most were already gone or defunct.
Though I did find the first archive, and did at one point read everything in it....
And yes - I dread this gwyn_r chick turning out to be like Tara O'Shea or Quinn and some of the others who swear that only S1 rocked.
Because - smashing my DON hat firmly on my head - I suspect what they didn't like in later seasons was Nikita coming into her own, and among other things, manipulating Michaeal as well as Michael manipulated her. I suspect what they really liked was the whole dynamic of a young rebellious girl/child and a dark mysterious teacher and weren't especially keen on seeing that turn into a partnership of peers. Which is why I kept right on groving, because that evolution was what held my fansciation. Still does...heheh.
W00t!
Date: 2004-10-06 04:03 pm (UTC)Heck, even I'd forgotten about it. Or I wouldn't have been so polite about it, trust me. *vbeg*
Buffy/Faith, huh? I wish I liked BtVS better as a show, because it *is* very femslash-friendly. The writing on the show was clever, but too "snarky American teen" for my taste. I really do prefer older characters. *Sigh*
Yep, Buffy/Faith is definitely my new OTP. It's a great pairing - not at all fluffy, has some real issues to deal with, and a fabulous power dynamic. *g*
The BtVS characters *are* young. You might like this pairing when it's dealt with the appropriate darkness, though. Or even Faith as a character, post-prison. Only, she's still too young for your taste.
Swatkat
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 04:06 pm (UTC)I doubt there would be any. All those interested have run away, with only the M/N fans left. *sigh*
Swatkat
I totally agree...
Date: 2004-10-06 04:12 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Hmm
Date: 2004-10-06 04:17 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Re: W00t!
Date: 2004-10-06 05:06 pm (UTC)Good point
Date: 2004-10-06 05:16 pm (UTC)Re: Oh dear --
Date: 2004-10-06 05:20 pm (UTC)Another one was with Spike and Dru(?) - his early female vamp partner in crime.
Spike struck me as about fifty times more interesting than Angel - so if I were to seek out BtVS fics, I would probably start with Spike/Buffy stories.
Re: Hmm
Date: 2004-10-06 05:28 pm (UTC)I keep reading that complaint - and I've never fully understood what they were talking about.
Yes - there were re-occurant problems with overall continuity between eps, and between seasons particularly, which is a writing problem of a sort.
Also - was it S3 or S4 where out of the first 11 eps - there wasn't a single cold-op mission? - again, a problem of the overall direction and focus for the overarching story.
But the actual ep to ep *writing* - as in scripts - and production? I don't think that was any more uneven in later seasons than the first. In some ways I think the production team actually got more consistent and more distinctive over the following seasons.
So - um - yeah - if the former, sure there were problems. The later? I've never agreed with that assessment in terms of teh words the writers put in the actors mouths, so I tend to wonder what larger issues are being subsumed into *writing.*
Nell (adjusting her DON hat to a sassy tilt)
Uh oh...
Date: 2004-10-06 05:36 pm (UTC)The reason I consider Buffy/Angel closer to Nikita/Michael is precisely the fact that, in my opinion, Angel isn't very interesting.
Spike has a personality -- he's witty and cynical and sarcastic. Angel comes a lot closer to my idea of the Michael-esque Mr. Silent Angst.
But this is why I'm a TR and not an HR -- I completely guessed wrong on where HR's would be inclined to go, eh?
As one who does criticize the writing
Date: 2004-10-06 05:50 pm (UTC)First, the lack of any effort to pay attention to continuity issues -- from season to season and episode to episode. Second, sloppiness in plotting the individual eps themselves -- often, plots and scenes didn't make sense if you thought about them, or required exposition that wasn't provided, or even contradicted each other (for example, end-of-episode twists often rendered earlier scenes nonsensical). Third, increasingly cheesy ideas for plots (S4, OMG!). Fourth, a drift away from the original premise of the show and into soap opera territory.
The show showed these symptoms throughout all of the seasons, to a degree, but it did, at least in my opinion, get worse over time.
Plotting is a pretty important part of writing, to me, so that's primarily what I refer to when I criticize the show's writing. But other people might mean something completely different -- hard to say.
Oh no -
Date: 2004-10-06 05:51 pm (UTC)MsGen - for example, is a total Buffy/Angel girl, which I'm sure she'll admitt with pride.
From the beginnning of LFN I was in Nikita's corner - and as it became clear that Michael was too, and not just in the possessive/protective male sense, but in the respecting and admiring her character sense - he grew on me. I'm among the crowd who didn't even think he was all that attractive at first. I only realized he was beautiful after he saved Nikita's life for the third or fourth time.
Now I do like Michael, a lot, but that came only after his feet of clay were fully realized - and his own character became clearer to me.
As for Spike's personality - yeah - that's what I liked too. Even though, in the ep I "met" Spike in, Angel was mad, bad and dangerous to know too. And was himself snarky and witty and cynical. Of course, I did like the dialogue of BtVS - and it fit particularly well on both Spike and Buffy.
Re: As one who does criticize the writing
Date: 2004-10-06 06:01 pm (UTC)I had decided to suspend my desire for the stories, even within eps, to make any logical sense pretty much from the theft of the 'directory' onwards.
I did have many passing regrets for the loss of mission/SOTW centered eps - but not enough to dim my fascination with the whole.
So - if someone were to say they lost interest in LFN after S1 because the show drifted further and further away from it's action show roots - I would understand exactly what they meant and why the show lost it's appeal for them.
I just don't see this primarily as a 'writing' issue - so that's why the turn of phrase always has me raising my eyebrows.
Nell
Re: As one who does criticize the writing
Date: 2004-10-06 06:20 pm (UTC)Plotting sloppiness within individual eps *did* occur in all of the seasons, but it was tolerable so long as the other factors were minimized. But when the plots became soap opera-like and less action-oriented, and when the accumulation of continuity gaps from season to season began to grow to larger proportions, it started to irk me. (That would be my reaction to S3.)
When they started coming up with utterly silly episode plots on top of that (S4), I kept watching *only* because I still enjoyed seeing several of the actors. And when they finally took too many of them out of the picture in S5 (or forced them to play roles they weren't very good at, a la Matthew Ferguson and his hideous accent), I indeed *did* stop watching. (Although I don't blame that last issue on writing so much, because that isn't a plotting issue.)
I do see the choice of plots for the episodes as a "writing" issue, so maybe it's a matter of semantics here.
Re: As one who does criticize the writing
Date: 2004-10-06 08:41 pm (UTC)Things did get worse - S4 had a few bright moments, but some things were beyond recovery continutiy-wise by the time it was half over.
S5 was basically an unredeamable mess - though I'm reasonably content with the end point of it all. Much of the body of those 8 eps I try hard to block out.
But that all happened waaaayyyy later than the beginning of S2. Which is, I think, why the sentiment that the show and its writing tanked after S1 always makes me scowl.
Not to beat a dead horse...
Date: 2004-10-06 09:38 pm (UTC)I'm not just criticizing "overall continuity problems and lack of interest in plot coherency," although that's a *biiiig* part of it.
But I'm also criticizing the totally lame-brain ideas for individual episodes that became more and more frequent, which to me *can* be laid at the feet of the individual scriptwriters.
I'm referring to ideas like, "Hey, let's ship Michael and Nikita off to Podunk, Tennessee (or wherever it was supposed to be, I've suppressed as much as possible from that episode) and surround them with quaint rural stereotypes who...drumroll...turn out to be Red Cell agents!" Or Toys in the Basement, He Came From Four, or the infamous "neural scraping" episode ("Hey, what if George could download everyone's brain!!!!"), and many others.
These were all just *so* stupid, as individual eps, that I could barely stand it. *Sigh*
Re: Not to beat a dead horse...
Date: 2004-10-06 09:40 pm (UTC)I agree with you to the extent people dismiss everything after S1, though. For those people, it may very well be more a matter of disliking the new Michael/Nikita dynamic.
Re: Not to beat a dead horse...
Date: 2004-10-06 09:55 pm (UTC)I blame the producers for the brain scrape thing.
Assuming that they gave the order - we'd like a flashback ep! Figure out someway to do an entre ep with only ten minutes of new film!!1!!
It isn't the claim that the writing or the plots were uneven and occasionally very silly indeed that I quibble with - rather it is the model of declension from a peak of clever coherence that irks me. Especially when I see it dated from S2. As a fan of the whole.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 03:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-19 03:37 am (UTC)Anyway, here are a couple B/F fics I recently came across:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/buffyfaith/30731.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/m_phoenix/12544.html
Also, as a Faith fan, I must pimp
Hi!
Date: 2004-10-19 08:55 am (UTC)I'm considered a newbie in the LFN fandom, because I found the fandom only after the show ended. I've been here two years now, but I suppose I'm still a newbie compared to others. I generally hang out in the Fan Fiction message board, maybe you've seen me over there? Have you ever dropped by?
Swatkat
Oh yes,
Date: 2004-10-19 08:59 am (UTC)The essay is fabulous, but I'm saving my comments till the third part (or more). I'm floundering around looking for good Faith or Buffy/Faith fics - but sadly, there aren't too many. I wish there was an organised recs structure here like we have in HP - it would've been a lot easier for a newbie like me. *sigh*
Thanks for the links. I'll be going out of town for a while, but I'll definitely check them out. *g*
Swatkat