Sunday night ramblings

[swatkat]

Oy! LFNers? Won't someone please go over to ship_manifesto and sign up for writing a Michael/Nikita essay? And a Paul/Madeline one? (Madeline/Nikita, George/Adrian, Michael/Jurgen, etc would be nice too, but I suppose that would be too much to ask for) Please? You'll enjoy it! Do this for your fandom! *tempts*

Speaking of ship_manifesto, this is one cool comm. I've been reading many of the essays, and I have to say that they've helped me get started with pairings I've always been interested in, but didn't know where to get started. Now I'm waiting for the Harry/Hermione essay on Oct 14th – here's hoping this will contain *some* good recs. *crosses fingers* I've already been disappointed by the Snape/Hermione essay, which, despite being an excellent essay by itself (she nails the reasons that could bring them together), recs only the most popular fics in the ship. And knowing this ship, well... (will try some of the recs, though)

Hmm. I wonder if they have a Remus/Hermione essay coming up as well? *g*

Some other interesting essays were:


Buffy/Angel: This is essay is very, very well-written – very passionate, and conveys the nature of their relationship just right. Buffy/Angel also reminds me of Michael/Nikita in a way. *sighs*

Snape/Lupin: Great pairing. There's also a good deal of links for starters.

Andromeda/Bellatrix: Oh, I really like this pairing! Of course, it's Blackcest, so you can stay away if it squicks you. It's got a couple of good fics recced – take note, jaybee65.

Harry/Ron/Hermione: I'd read this pairing, I really, truly would. But. So. Much. Smut! *headdesk*

Remus/Sirius: What, does this even need an explanation? Has a great list of recs.

Wes/Fred: Ah, Wes/Fred, how I love thee! I rooted for them even when Fred/Gunn was common, and as much as I love Wes/Lilah, this pairing rocks!

Wes/Lilah: I've always wanted to read Wes/Lilah, and am definitely going to follow the recs. I'm afraid that there'll be a lot of smut, but I'm sure I'll manage.

Buffy/Faith: Oh, I think this could be my BtVS OTP! *rubs hands together in glee*



Hmm. With so many interesting girls in BtVS/AtS, there should a lot of good femmeslash around, right? *ponders*

I also read the John/Aeryn essay, because some of you talk about it so much – not so much impressed by the essay itself, but the pairing sounds great. *g*

I have also decided that I really, really like Faith as a character, and am going to read a lot of Faith fics in the future.

Also, The Critically Constructive Feedback Project. Check it out.

Comments

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Someone already 'took' Michael/Nikita. So - that's gone. I don't think they're leting more than one person 'pitch' each ship. At least for the present.

I checked the comm out when it got a brief appearance on F_W, it seems like a really interesting idea.

I also skimmed the John/Aeryn essay. It's more plot overview than pairing defense/explanation - are the other essays like that too?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Someone already took M/N?! Someone we know? It would really, really odd to have an essay written by someone who's not an active part of the fandom.

I also skimmed the John/Aeryn essay. It's more plot overview than pairing defense/explanation - are the other essays like that too?

Nope. The good essays are plot overview as well as explanation - why *I* think this pairing works well, why I think these two characters are/would be drawn together, etc. The other ones I've linked above are quite good.

Swatkat

[msgenevieve.livejournal.com]

It would really, really odd to have an essay written by someone who's not an active part of the fandom

Odd, yes, but also quite interesting too, don't you think?

Mmmm

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

yeah, I suppose. They better do it *good*, though. *g*

Swatkat

Re: Mmmm

[nell65.livejournal.com]

It was the very first thing I checked when I first poked around the comm.

I've never heard of the chick - http://www.livejournal.com/users/gwyn_r/

Here's her website: http://www.drizzle.com/~gwyneth/

Doesn't look like she has ever written in LFN, or at least she doesn't claim it now, and she does some vidding.

She appears to be a big Spike/Buffy girl....which could make her essay on the canon OTP Michael and Nikita interesting. But she doesn't link to any LFN sites, which makes me wonder what in the world she plans to recc.

This will be interesting....only, she doesn't appear to actually be on the schedule anywhere. ?

Hmm

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Where is the link that says she has claimed the ship? And she *should* appear on the list, because even JayBee got a date that's in this year, and not 2005, and she made a claim only yesterday.

Swatkat

Re: Hmm

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I just copied this from the "Master List" Page.

La Femme Nikita
Madeline/Operations -- jaybee65
Nikita/Michael -- gwyn_r

The schedule is really full, I may just be having trouble finding qwyn_r in the mass.

But it isn't in the memories section, so I don't think it's been written yet either.

N

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

It's not been written, because I've been following this comm pretty closely and there's no way on earth I could miss *that*.

It could be that you missed - that page is pretty crowded. I'll go take a look.

Swatkat

Just checked...

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

It doesn't seem to be there. *g*

Swatkat

Re: Just checked...

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

No, it's not there. How odd!

If her essay does get posted, we'll all have to jump in on the thread if she does a less than good job with recs.

Yes definitely...

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

she could very well be a HR and prefer fluffy, sappy fics. *shudder*

Swatkat

Oh dear --

[nell65.livejournal.com]

She writes Spike/Buffy - surely that *isn't* a fluffy OTP....riiight??

N

Re: Oh dear --

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Probably not fluffy, but it's interesting, in that the Buffy/Spike dynamic doesn't strike me as very similar to Nikita/Michael. I would have expected a N/M fan to go for Buffy/Angel.

I'll be quite curious to see what she writes.

Re: Oh dear --

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Really? I've only seen like 2 and a half eps of BtVS, but one of them happened to be the ep where Buffy and Angel got it on. And then he lost his soul again.

Another one was with Spike and Dru(?) - his early female vamp partner in crime.

Spike struck me as about fifty times more interesting than Angel - so if I were to seek out BtVS fics, I would probably start with Spike/Buffy stories.

Uh oh...

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm revealing my attitude about Michael here. ;-)

The reason I consider Buffy/Angel closer to Nikita/Michael is precisely the fact that, in my opinion, Angel isn't very interesting.

Spike has a personality -- he's witty and cynical and sarcastic. Angel comes a lot closer to my idea of the Michael-esque Mr. Silent Angst.

But this is why I'm a TR and not an HR -- I completely guessed wrong on where HR's would be inclined to go, eh?

Oh no -

[nell65.livejournal.com]

just guessed wrong that we're all coming from the same place! LOL!

MsGen - for example, is a total Buffy/Angel girl, which I'm sure she'll admitt with pride.

From the beginnning of LFN I was in Nikita's corner - and as it became clear that Michael was too, and not just in the possessive/protective male sense, but in the respecting and admiring her character sense - he grew on me. I'm among the crowd who didn't even think he was all that attractive at first. I only realized he was beautiful after he saved Nikita's life for the third or fourth time.

Now I do like Michael, a lot, but that came only after his feet of clay were fully realized - and his own character became clearer to me.

As for Spike's personality - yeah - that's what I liked too. Even though, in the ep I "met" Spike in, Angel was mad, bad and dangerous to know too. And was himself snarky and witty and cynical. Of course, I did like the dialogue of BtVS - and it fit particularly well on both Spike and Buffy.

Re: Just checked...

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Yep - not all that sure I'm dying to write such an essay, I'm a little swamped at the moment, writing wise - but I definitely want to make sure that when it *does* get written, that it rec's current as well as the past stuff....and doesn't waste too much time crying over the one sadly departed archive ....

Re: Just checked...

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Yes...why is it that most of the people "outside the fandom" always seem to refer to stories from that archive, rather than ranma's? Ranma's is *much* bigger.

Was ranma's smaller than the other one during the early seasons? That might explain it.

Re: Just checked...

[nell65.livejournal.com]

It was the first major archive....associated, originally I think, with one of the bigger fansites, then broke off when it changed owners.

I think they stopped updating/accepting new stories after the first couple of years and just maintained it after about 1998...

And Ranma started out just archieiving the stories posted to Susan Hargrove's MB, then when she broke off the first story boards....though now Ranma would happily take anything LFN related, I believe.

The thing is, for all my sensation of drowning in LFN fanfic, the story boards were so active, and Ranma's already so large, when I first started in (which was during S1, so it's hard to believe I missed the first few boats, but apparently I did....) - I never learned about how many other places people posted stories until much later, when most were already gone or defunct.

Though I did find the first archive, and did at one point read everything in it....

And yes - I dread this gwyn_r chick turning out to be like Tara O'Shea or Quinn and some of the others who swear that only S1 rocked.

Because - smashing my DON hat firmly on my head - I suspect what they didn't like in later seasons was Nikita coming into her own, and among other things, manipulating Michaeal as well as Michael manipulated her. I suspect what they really liked was the whole dynamic of a young rebellious girl/child and a dark mysterious teacher and weren't especially keen on seeing that turn into a partnership of peers. Which is why I kept right on groving, because that evolution was what held my fansciation. Still does...heheh.

Hmm

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I adore your DON hat (puts on her own), and I'm pretty darn sure that there *were* and *are* many fans who prefer S1 because of it (have some issues with the Nikita character, they will say). But there were also others who ran away because the writing fell apart. *sigh*

Swatkat

Re: Hmm

[nell65.livejournal.com]

But there were also others who ran away because the writing fell apart.

I keep reading that complaint - and I've never fully understood what they were talking about.

Yes - there were re-occurant problems with overall continuity between eps, and between seasons particularly, which is a writing problem of a sort.

Also - was it S3 or S4 where out of the first 11 eps - there wasn't a single cold-op mission? - again, a problem of the overall direction and focus for the overarching story.

But the actual ep to ep *writing* - as in scripts - and production? I don't think that was any more uneven in later seasons than the first. In some ways I think the production team actually got more consistent and more distinctive over the following seasons.

So - um - yeah - if the former, sure there were problems. The later? I've never agreed with that assessment in terms of teh words the writers put in the actors mouths, so I tend to wonder what larger issues are being subsumed into *writing.*

Nell (adjusting her DON hat to a sassy tilt)

As one who does criticize the writing

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I mean several things:

First, the lack of any effort to pay attention to continuity issues -- from season to season and episode to episode. Second, sloppiness in plotting the individual eps themselves -- often, plots and scenes didn't make sense if you thought about them, or required exposition that wasn't provided, or even contradicted each other (for example, end-of-episode twists often rendered earlier scenes nonsensical). Third, increasingly cheesy ideas for plots (S4, OMG!). Fourth, a drift away from the original premise of the show and into soap opera territory.

The show showed these symptoms throughout all of the seasons, to a degree, but it did, at least in my opinion, get worse over time.

Plotting is a pretty important part of writing, to me, so that's primarily what I refer to when I criticize the show's writing. But other people might mean something completely different -- hard to say.

Re: As one who does criticize the writing

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I guess as I had problems from the very first eps with some of these things, it didn't seem "worse" over the following seasons.

I had decided to suspend my desire for the stories, even within eps, to make any logical sense pretty much from the theft of the 'directory' onwards.

I did have many passing regrets for the loss of mission/SOTW centered eps - but not enough to dim my fascination with the whole.

So - if someone were to say they lost interest in LFN after S1 because the show drifted further and further away from it's action show roots - I would understand exactly what they meant and why the show lost it's appeal for them.

I just don't see this primarily as a 'writing' issue - so that's why the turn of phrase always has me raising my eyebrows.

Nell

Re: As one who does criticize the writing

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I'd peg my frustration as post-S2 rather than post-S1.

Plotting sloppiness within individual eps *did* occur in all of the seasons, but it was tolerable so long as the other factors were minimized. But when the plots became soap opera-like and less action-oriented, and when the accumulation of continuity gaps from season to season began to grow to larger proportions, it started to irk me. (That would be my reaction to S3.)

When they started coming up with utterly silly episode plots on top of that (S4), I kept watching *only* because I still enjoyed seeing several of the actors. And when they finally took too many of them out of the picture in S5 (or forced them to play roles they weren't very good at, a la Matthew Ferguson and his hideous accent), I indeed *did* stop watching. (Although I don't blame that last issue on writing so much, because that isn't a plotting issue.)

I do see the choice of plots for the episodes as a "writing" issue, so maybe it's a matter of semantics here.

Re: As one who does criticize the writing

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Yep - I'm probably just thinking of the "writing" too narrowly, as what the round robin script-writers were doing - and not feeling like the overall continuity problems and lack of interest in plot coherency should be laid primarily at their feet. That's what the production staff should be taking care of. But weren't. Sigh.

Things did get worse - S4 had a few bright moments, but some things were beyond recovery continutiy-wise by the time it was half over.

S5 was basically an unredeamable mess - though I'm reasonably content with the end point of it all. Much of the body of those 8 eps I try hard to block out.

But that all happened waaaayyyy later than the beginning of S2. Which is, I think, why the sentiment that the show and its writing tanked after S1 always makes me scowl.

Not to beat a dead horse...

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Or yes, maybe I *do* want to beat a dead horse. ;-)

I'm not just criticizing "overall continuity problems and lack of interest in plot coherency," although that's a *biiiig* part of it.

But I'm also criticizing the totally lame-brain ideas for individual episodes that became more and more frequent, which to me *can* be laid at the feet of the individual scriptwriters.

I'm referring to ideas like, "Hey, let's ship Michael and Nikita off to Podunk, Tennessee (or wherever it was supposed to be, I've suppressed as much as possible from that episode) and surround them with quaint rural stereotypes who...drumroll...turn out to be Red Cell agents!" Or Toys in the Basement, He Came From Four, or the infamous "neural scraping" episode ("Hey, what if George could download everyone's brain!!!!"), and many others.

These were all just *so* stupid, as individual eps, that I could barely stand it. *Sigh*

Re: Not to beat a dead horse...

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Forgot to add...

I agree with you to the extent people dismiss everything after S1, though. For those people, it may very well be more a matter of disliking the new Michael/Nikita dynamic.

Re: Not to beat a dead horse...

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Well - yes. The individual plots were also sillier more of the time. Or, seemed so anyway. Though I liked the *idea* of Michael and Nikita going to a small town thinking it's one thing but discovering another. The notion that no one else noticed a large satalite crash to earth and came to investigate? That was utterly bizzare. Though was it really any more bizzare than a mentally handicaped man being the only person who could prevent the nuclear warhead from exploding?

I blame the producers for the brain scrape thing.

Assuming that they gave the order - we'd like a flashback ep! Figure out someway to do an entre ep with only ten minutes of new film!!1!!

It isn't the claim that the writing or the plots were uneven and occasionally very silly indeed that I quibble with - rather it is the model of declension from a peak of clever coherence that irks me. Especially when I see it dated from S2. As a fan of the whole.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

If you can tell me how to sign up for a pairing, I'll do Madeline/Operations. I clicked on the "sign up" link, and it said to add a comment if you want to claim a pairing, but all the comments seem to be by people who *already* have reserved pairings and are discussing scheduling. Thus leaving me somewhat confused as to the procedure.

No time to read the Andromeda/Bellatrix one yet, but I look forward to that.

YAY!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

She says she will write the essay! *war dance*

I'm not sure. You could comment on that thread, or mail the mod. But. Pleasepleaseplease write! Do you want me to comment/mail the mod for you?

The A/B essay is quite good, but you should really check out the links given below. I read a couple of stories which were quite good, and I intend to follow the rest of the links as well. Now I'm waiting for the other pairings I'm interested in to come up.

Swatkat

Re: YAY!

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I emailed the mod, and am now signed up for an essay due Dec. 8. Woo!

Of course, given the small size of the fandom and even tinier size of this particular 'ship, there will probably be a grand total of 3 people who read it. LOL. Nevertheless, I'll try to "represent" as best I can.

W00t!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

You'll do a fabulous job! And when you're reccing stories, please don't be polite and not recommend your own stories, okay? Yeah! *g*

Swatkat

Double Yah!!!!

[msgenevieve.livejournal.com]

You will do a fabulous job and we will all be clamouring to claim kinship. *g*

Re: YAY!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Well - you've got three readers right here, and you haven't even pimped it yet to the TRs....I bet you'll be surprised.

I alaways am, when LFN comes on F_W how many people are like, "oh yeah - I really liked that show...."

I don't know *why* I'm surprised given my own ongoing fascination, but, yeah - I am. LOL!


N

Heh

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I alaways am, when LFN comes on F_W how many people are like, "oh yeah - I really liked that show...."

Me too. There are *so many* out there on LJ, people who come out and ask, "Isn't that Michael from LFN?", and sigh nostalgic sighs...

Swatkat

Re: Heh

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I occasionally get that reaction, too. I posted my Nikita/Maddy story to a femslash community, for example, and got several replies from people who said they had been looking for that pairing *forever*. And they weren't people I had ever come across in the LFN community.

I think LFN may be sort of a "secondary" show for a lot of people -- something they liked a lot, but not enough to join the fandom.

Yes

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

even I had been waiting *forever* for that pairing, and won't someone please write me more of it? (Psst... which comm? Has it HP too? And BtVS? I want to look for Buffy/Faith, you see)

I think LFN may be sort of a "secondary" show for a lot of people -- something they liked a lot, but not enough to join the fandom.

Or people who had drifted by, took one look at the insane RD-squee and sappy M/N fic that drowns the good stuff, and ran right away. *sigh*

Swatkat

Re: Yes

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

even I had been waiting *forever* for that pairing, and won't someone please write me more of it?

I still owe you a N/Ma story as "payment" for that icon you did for me! I'd totally forgotten! *Smacks forehead* Let me get on that ASAP.

(Psst... which comm? Has it HP too? And BtVS? I want to look for Buffy/Faith, you see)

I'll have to check which comm...it's been a while since I went there. They had a little bit of everything, but as it turned out far too much RPS for my taste, so I stopped reading.

Buffy/Faith, huh? I wish I liked BtVS better as a show, because it *is* very femslash-friendly. The writing on the show was clever, but too "snarky American teen" for my taste. I really do prefer older characters. *Sigh*

W00t!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I still owe you a N/Ma story as "payment" for that icon you did for me! I'd totally forgotten! *Smacks forehead* Let me get on that ASAP.

Heck, even I'd forgotten about it. Or I wouldn't have been so polite about it, trust me. *vbeg*

Buffy/Faith, huh? I wish I liked BtVS better as a show, because it *is* very femslash-friendly. The writing on the show was clever, but too "snarky American teen" for my taste. I really do prefer older characters. *Sigh*

Yep, Buffy/Faith is definitely my new OTP. It's a great pairing - not at all fluffy, has some real issues to deal with, and a fabulous power dynamic. *g*

The BtVS characters *are* young. You might like this pairing when it's dealt with the appropriate darkness, though. Or even Faith as a character, post-prison. Only, she's still too young for your taste.

Swatkat

Re: W00t!

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not sure I could ever get into BtVS, no matter how dark it got. It's the dialogue, now that I think about it, more than the characters' ages per se. They all have this super-snarky wisecracking American teen way of talking, and it really gets on my nerves. (Ironically, the dialogue seems to be one of the things that fans of the show love the most.) I would imagine that the fanfic would emulate this style of dialogue, which would render it pretty much unreadable for me. A shame, really, because the BtVS universe itself seems quite fun. Oh, well.

Forgot to mention

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Or people who had drifted by, took one look at the insane RD-squee and sappy M/N fic that drowns the good stuff, and ran right away. *sigh*

That's a *very* good point. The makeup of the fandom may be somewhat self-perpetuating because of that -- someone would have to go to an effort to create a permanent space for slash, for example, and I'm not sure anyone is determined and dedicated enough to hang in there long enough to attract supporters.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

The makeup of the fandom may be somewhat self-perpetuating because of that -- someone would have to go to an effort to create a permanent space for slash, for example, and I'm not sure anyone is determined and dedicated enough to hang in there long enough to attract supporters.

I doubt there would be any. All those interested have run away, with only the M/N fans left. *sigh*

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Just read the Andromeda/Bellatrix essay, and enjoyed it a lot. I'll work my way through the recs eventually.

I didn't want to say this on the thread there, but I think stories with that "pairing" don't need the sexual content whatsoever to work perfectly well. They're sisters in a family where "family" means a *lot*, so they already have a profound bond and strong feelings about each other that would make great material for stories. You don't need to throw in sexual attraction as an excuse to provoke those emotions the way you do with many other pairings.

But because I am very interested in the possibilities of their relationship with each other, I'll put up with the incest if that's the only way stories will get written. LOL.

I totally agree...

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

and since the fandom does not generally appreciate non-pairing fics (insert sarcastic tone here), often authors may subconsciously resort to writing pairing-oriented fics.

Swatkat

Good point

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Honestly, almost all of the non-explicit incest fics in HP would work perfectly well without the sexual component. It's as if people have decided that there *are* no emotionally intense relationships aside from sexual ones. In other fandoms, you see the idea of "friendship" being supplanted this way, but in HP it's extended even to family. It's a strangely simplistic view of human interactions.

[nikitangel.livejournal.com]

Greetings! I saw you friended me and came to check out your place, only to find a lovely collection of LFN people! It's been awhile since I was active in the LFN fandom, but it's still my first and favorite. I didn't realize there were many LFN people on LJ - I've only run into Buffy people here. I remember your username - were you active on the Storyboards? The Haven? Hussies?

[nikitangel.livejournal.com]

I forgot to mention - I share your Faith and Buffy/Faith love! Sadly, I have trouble finding many B/F fics, but I keep looking. I'm writing the Faith essay for idol_reflection and have been collecting links for the final part (I'm posting in parts, because I got too involved and it got very very long *g*).

Anyway, here are a couple B/F fics I recently came across:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/buffyfaith/30731.html

http://www.livejournal.com/users/m_phoenix/12544.html

Also, as a Faith fan, I must pimp secretary_rpg to you. It is ultimately satisfying. It's not a true RPG - it's an on-going fic written by five women. I'm not usually a fan of AU, but this one is based on the movie "Secretary", with Wes and Faith in the main roles. Definitely worth a shot!

Oh yes,

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I read your Faith essay - that's how I came to friend you. And I then realised that you were also in the LFN fandom. Small world, huh?

The essay is fabulous, but I'm saving my comments till the third part (or more). I'm floundering around looking for good Faith or Buffy/Faith fics - but sadly, there aren't too many. I wish there was an organised recs structure here like we have in HP - it would've been a lot easier for a newbie like me. *sigh*

Thanks for the links. I'll be going out of town for a while, but I'll definitely check them out. *g*

Swatkat

Hi!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Yes, there are quite a few of us in LJ - you'll find most of them in my flist. *g*

I'm considered a newbie in the LFN fandom, because I found the fandom only after the show ended. I've been here two years now, but I suppose I'm still a newbie compared to others. I generally hang out in the Fan Fiction message board, maybe you've seen me over there? Have you ever dropped by?

Swatkat