Idiots, and all that

[swatkat]

I have been reading this old wank in fanficrants (it's long - summary is in F_W) for quite a while now, and I'm not sure what exactly it is that I want to do - laugh or hit her on the head with a volume of the OED. Both, probably. My favourite quote, though:So now you're saying that people go to college to Learn To Think? o_o

Also, I'm genuinely curious about this one - why do people insist on calling the English language 'not beautiful'? Of course, this idiot poster called French and Japanese 'pretty languages', but I've heard this from many sane, intelligent people as well. It is beautiful! Sure, it's 'harsh' and masculine and not melodious in the way, say, Sanskrit is, but it *is* a beautiful language. Why must you deride your mother tongue so?

Comments

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I do get the 'not melodious' part - it really isn't, what with the monosyllables and the hard endings - but it often comes across as if they're eager to deride their own language to praise someone elses, and I find that very...odd? Or maybe I misinterpreted, and they were really talking about the sound effect? Language is a touchy issue here, so maybe I automatically read that into someone else's words, even though that was not their intent. *scratches head*

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I think that if someone uses the word "beautiful" in connection with a language, I automatically assume they mean the sheer *sound* of it. It wouldn't occur to me to judge the beauty of a language on any other basis. What other criterion would one use?

Thus for me, melodious = beautiful, and non-melodious = non-beautiful. Simple as that.

I guess as a native English-speaker, I qualify as that "they" you're referring to, but I don't think I'm deriding my own language by pointing out that it isn't the most musical-sounding tongue in the universe -- rather, I believe I'm being objective. (Of course, I come from a land where everyone is always trying to claim to be the "best" in everything, and I tend to react against that as a kind of mindless flag-waving. I often feel like I have to defend myself from accusations of being unpatriotic just because I'm willing to recognize the imperfections of my own culture.)

What, really, is so wrong with saying that English isn't necessarily the most beautiful belle of the ball? Are native English-speakers -- participants in a culture that has dominated the planet in so many ways over the past few generations -- so insecure that we can't concede *anything* to anyone else? I, for one, don't think we lose anything by being willing to admit the advantages of others.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Ah, I think I’m not being able to explain myself properly to you. *cringe*

As you, and several other folks have pointed out, when someone calls a language ‘beautiful’, or ‘not beautiful’, it is in the sense ‘melodious’, or ‘not melodious’, and that’s the only thing they mean, period. (And I totally agree that English as a language is not melodious to the ears the way many other languages are – I said that in the original post, too. I could, in fact, cite ten million technical reasons and quote annoying critics Important People as to why it isn’t) But when I made the original post, that was not what I was thinking. When I said ‘they’, I was not referring to you specifically, but to many people whom I’ve had the opportunity to talk to in RL (I should’ve clarified, shouldn’t I?). And maybe it’s miscommunication, maybe it’s just my own prejudices (I can’t deny not having them), but I really did feel as if they were, for some reason, dismissing the power and the splendor of their mother tongue, which is something that does bother me. You will, of course, ask why. First, I love this language (and many other languages. even languages I don’t know. languages are beautiful things). Second, and the more important thing (because the first point seems to imply that I am somehow the Lone Defender of the English Language in an Insane World, and no one else loves it the way *I* do, which is so not what I mean) – language, for me, and for anyone else here, forms a part of my identity in a way I’m not sure I’ll be able to explain. (and it will be very boring anyway) Language is a touchy issue; the mother tongue even more so. So, anyone trying to bash a language in anyway will always give rise to that “OMG how can you *say* that?” reaction from me. And because I was operating under that stupid assumption that these people were deriding English when they were, in reality, merely stating an innocent opinion about the musicality of the language, I wanted to know what drives them to do so.

Remind me not make off-hand posts in the middle of the night, that too after reading some mind-bogglingly stupid opinions on pet issues? *opens mouth, inserts foot*

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

First of all, don't apologize for your post, because I think it opened up a fascinating topic.

Now, as for what people mean when they call a language beautiful, I *do* think that lots of them, like me, simply mean the melodious quality. However, as demonstrated by some of the other responses here, apparently quite a few define it otherwise, and it's been interesting to see how different people make that judgment.

I recently had a discussion elsewhere online about genres of music and why people like the ones they do -- and one thing that came up was that a lot of people judge popular songs based on the *meaning* of the lyrics, which is completely unlike the way I listen to music. I judge singing by the way it *sounds*, in terms of melody, tone, rhythm, etc., and a lot of the time I don't pay *any* conscious attention to what the lyrics mean. (I can hear a song, even with clearly-sung lyrics in English, and not notice what it's about until I've heard it dozens of times.) And yet for a lot of other people, the primary thing they care about is whether the lyrics are saying something important to them. It was really an eye-opening discussion for me -- and this discussion seems to raise similar issues, in terms of my being a "sound-focused" person in my aesthetic judgments and other people using very different standards. It's really quite interesting to think about.

As for deriding English, well, I didn't actually read the w*nk you're referring to, so those people might very well have been doing so. I can't say I run into that attitude very much in the land of "We're Number One" -- instead, we have political arguments that arise from many people's fears that English is being "threatened" by immigrants who stubbornly "refuse" to learn to speak it, and the paranoia, defensiveness and then inflated self-praise that comes from that. Thus I bring a RL bias, too -- whenever I hear people singing about the wondrousness of the English language, it conjures up visions of English-Only anti-immigration proponents, even when I know the person has no such mind-set.

Personally, I think you should make more off-hand posts in the middle of the night, if they provoke me to think like this. *g*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

First of all, don't apologize for your post, because I think it opened up a fascinating topic.

I knew you'd understand, but was making sure I hadn't been offensive. Just in case, you know. *g*

It was really an eye-opening discussion for me -- and this discussion seems to raise similar issues, in terms of my being a "sound-focused" person in my aesthetic judgments and other people using very different standards.

Like you, I can listen to a song many times without noticing the lyrics (unless it's something that immediately catches the ear for some reason). I rarely remember the lyrics of songs I actually like! And while I do appreciate good lyrics, I won't listen to songs that hurt my ears even though they consist of beautiful poetry, and I will listen to songs that have crap lyrics but tunes I enjoy. (*coughEminemcough*) My favourite songs usually have lyrics that speak to me as well as tunes that I think are beautiful.

As for deriding English, well, I didn't actually read the w*nk you're referring to, so those people might very well have been doing so.

Heh, this wank was actually about an idiot poster declaring that English is a stupid thing to study, and then proceeding to argue her ignorant POV vehemently with other posters. Of course, then she went on to say that anything that is 'useless' (higher mathematics and physics, languages, etc etc) is a stupid thing to study, and I realised that I should not bother myself with this idiot anymore. LOL But really, how many times in RL have you heard people say that studying [insert subject here] is useless because it won't get you a job? [/rant]

I can't say I run into that attitude very much in the land of "We're Number One"

Oh, I do, and trust me, it's not enjoyable. I understand the issues about English being the language of the Evil Colonials, particularly with the older generations, but I fail to understand how they cannot see the *necessity* of this language in our country. Nowadays, the job-market has forced them to make grudging concessions, but heaven forbid someone actually professing to *like* the language, instead of having learnt it out of necessity! I know English is not my 'mother' tongue (and I love that language very much) - but I learnt it simultaneously ever since I was two years old, I can speak as well, write as well, and they say it's not my language? That they have the right to decide how *I* chose to communicate with other people? Who died and made them the Language Police? ... sorry, bit of a sensitive issue there. *sheepish smile*

we have political arguments that arise from many people's fears that English is being "threatened" by immigrants who stubbornly "refuse" to learn to speak it, and the paranoia, defensiveness and then inflated self-praise that comes from that.

Of course, these people do not understand (or feel the *need* to understand) that (a) English may not be as easy to learn for an adult as they think it is, and (b)the need to hold on to something from the home country in an alien environment, that language becomes a question of identity for the immigrants. And what are the odds against these very same people bothering to learn another language, should *they* have to immigrate for some reason or the other? (They'd get away with it in most countries, though) That crap happens here too, in a slightly different form - it's usually about immigrants from other states who refuse to learn the language (whatever it might be), or the Stupid Kids who find it more convenient to speak in English than having to learn ten different languages.

Swatkat

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

And what are the odds against these very same people bothering to learn another language, should *they* have to immigrate for some reason or the other?

Actually, most people I know who believe in immigrants learning English would absolutely learn the language of another country if they were thinking of moving there--that's where the honest bafflement comes from. I am one of those evil people who believes that immigrants to the U.S. should trouble themselves to learn English (for the reason you mentioned about being able to communicate in the general society), and trust me, if I decided to move to Germany, I would certainly expect to have to learn German! It's just a natural assumption. And if I didn't want to learn German, then it would make more sense to move someplace where it wasn't the majority language, rather than moving to Germany.

This isn't to say that I don't support people continuing to speak their mother tongues as well as English--linguistic ability is a major plus, and it can only be helpful to have at least two languages at one's command.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid this is another case of my classic foot-in-mouth syndrome, because immediately after I made my post I was wishing I could edit it, because I also wanted to mention that there's a kernel of legitimacy behind the demand, i.e, the need for communication. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't acknowledge its importance(especially after ranting about it in my previous post *g*). However, jaybee65 mentioned the feeling among certain people that the English language is somehow being 'threatened' - a sentiment I completely fail to understand, or even sympathise with. It also reminds me uncannily of the Language Police here at home, who make the exact same demands and fail to grant even the basic levels of dignity or courtesy to the immigrant population, and my previous post should tell you how I feel about *that*. It is this sentiment that I find ridiculous (offensive, even), not the legitimate demand made by citizens in a civil manner, and I should've mentioned this in my previous post - I do apologise if I've offended you; I respect you and your opinions, and I certainly didn't intend to do so.

Swatkat

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, it's okay. The notion that English is "threatened" as a language is just silly--English is ubiquitous. I think what people are worried about is that English as a lingua franca of the country is threatened, that we'll find ourselves in a balkanized situation of disjointed linguistic groups who don't understand each other (or want to). There's also the fact that most Americans are descended from immigrants, and those who weren't English learned English, and--the salient point--passed it on as a positive value, part of leaving the old world behind and becoming Americans. The political angle (which is what makes the conversation so cantankerous) comes because of an ideological clash in the ongoing culture wars, involving the very notion of leaving the old world behind and becoming American. What should have legitimately been a movement to recognize and celebrate diversity of backgrounds has turned into line drawn in the sand, and people sitting around glaring at one another across it, one side reading the other as "You're trying to force assimilation into your racist society!" and the other side reading the first as "You're trying to break down communication and turn us into a collection of warring tribes!"

Of course, I'm sure there are a handful English speakers who take the French attitude of "don't you dare pollute my language!"... it just makes no sense whatsoever in English, since, hello... it's English. If we didn't steal words, phrases, and idioms from every other language we'd encountered, we'd have, like, a fifty-word vocabulary.