swatkat

I think it comes from a discussion on the original thread about people's motivations in writing. One person took the position that the urge to write slash, both m/m and f/f, comes from the same place, and another countered that no, that's not necessarily so: some f/f fans are interested in exploring specifically female characters/perspectives/relationships. Perhaps this is being interpreted as some sort of separatist position, although I think that's very mistaken. Having one's primary fannish (or even fiction-reading) interest be the exploration of female identity via female characters does not translate into separatism. Or else I'm a separatist myself, and I think my male partner would be rather surprised to hear it.

There is a thread running through some of these discussions which, however feminist the agendas and identities involved, opperates on the human default=male model. In this light m/m is then 'free' of gender politics - as though this was either a desirable or admirable or even tenable position. In this context, then, to express a desire to focus on female identity/characters/issues gets read as a rejection of human identity. Which is, you know, gag inducing.

My issue is that I'm just not all that interested in reading about men. I'm not saying I'm not interested at *all*, but the male characters aren't the first thing I look for. Which I freely admit is just a personal preference and don't try to ascribe any political significance to.

I'm more interested in reading and writing about men than you are, that is true, but I'm not especially interested in reading about men without women. I've realized that this is one of the reasons I don't much care for slash across the board, even granting some of my other problems with it - identifying with Aragorn or Hornoblower as straight men when I was quite young, for example. (And what that might say about my sexuality, I have no bloody idea.) Men without women, well, I find them a little dull. IMO, gender politics in action is what makes men interesting. *g* To each there own, you know.

The OP in the thread, whom I've engaged with before (I'd do the little linky thingy, but I don't know how and am too lazy to look it up), when I said this, responded that my preference for reading about women, and lack of interest in reading about men with men, could be read as misandric. I cheerfully agreed. I could very well be misandric when I say that boys being boys together interests me not at all. (I could even be exaggerating, though, not by much. ;-) The interesting thing, though, was that I didn't say I didn't like men, or respect them, or that I hated them - I just said I found m/m centered fic and stories dull.

There is so much going on in these discussions, trying to parse it is like a rubric's cube puzzle. And I never did learn to solve those, though not for lack of trying.

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See, the problem with most of these discussions is the over-generalisation and the refusal to accept *any other interpretation* save their own. Sometimes, not enjoying m/m is just that... not enjoying m/m. And the same goes for not wanting to read m/f or f/f. It's personal preference.

Swatkat

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Or just, somehow, perhaps even without consciously meaning too, privilleging their own preferences as the 'better' preferences, the 'cooler' or more 'refined' tastes. Even the more passionate tastes.

One of the things I've been struggling with, personally, in the whole slash/het meta pile of ramblings, is once the m/m slashers sieze on the "slash is an expression of female desire for men" idea - it feels a good deal like it closes off the possibiliy of female desire for men, mine in particular just fer example, from being fully realized in any other form. That somehow, female desire for men is expressed in its highest, purest form *only* in m/m erotica aimed at women - the stuff without all the extraneous focus on the clit. I honestly do believe that presented like this, most would reject it as their intended meaning......but, then you're back to pointing out that in the absence of identifying markers of authorship or intended auidence, m/m erotica doesn't have any women *in* the stories, so how would one necessarily leap to the conclusion that *female* desire is the subject and the object of the story?

If that's hard, and it is, the even bigger trick is to accept that having made your preferences known, in isolation from the rest of you, people will draw conclusions from that about "who you are." Or, at least, who-you-are fannishly. Conclusions you may not like or be comfortable with. And who likes that?

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One of the things I've been struggling with, personally, in the whole slash/het meta pile of ramblings, is once the m/m slashers sieze on the "slash is an expression of female desire for men" idea - it feels a good deal like it closes off the possibiliy of female desire for men, mine in particular just fer example, from being fully realized in any other form.

But I think a lot of these statements have been sparked by a defensive reaction on behalf of slashers. No one ever asks that het justify its existence the way slash must constantly explain its legitimacy -- some people may criticize or even look down on het, but no one ever demands to know why women would write such a thing.

If that's hard, and it is, the even bigger trick is to accept that having made your preferences known, in isolation from the rest of you, people will draw conclusions from that about "who you are." Or, at least, who-you-are fannishly. Conclusions you may not like or be comfortable with. And who likes that?

Oh, absolutely. I know exactly what you mean. No one knows me in fandom at large, so I feel I have to really watch what I say so as not to create a bad first impression.

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But I think a lot of these statements have been sparked by a defensive reaction on behalf of slashers. No one ever asks that het justify its existence the way slash must constantly explain its legitimacy -- some people may criticize or even look down on het, but no one ever demands to know why women would write such a thing.

Absolutely. And some have turned the question around and asked 'why het?' I'm reasonably sure that my answer wouldn't satisfy, because it's hard to explain even to myself.

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But I think a lot of these statements have been sparked by a defensive reaction on behalf of slashers. No one ever asks that het justify its existence the way slash must constantly explain its legitimacy -- some people may criticize or even look down on het, but no one ever demands to know why women would write such a thing.

Word. This is reason there are so many over-generalisations.

Swatkat

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The OP in the thread, whom I've engaged with before (I'd do the little linky thingy, but I don't know how and am too lazy to look it up), when I said this, responded that my preference for reading about women, and lack of interest in reading about men with men, could be read as misandric. I cheerfully agreed. I could very well be misandric when I say that boys being boys together interests me not at all. (I could even be exaggerating, though, not by much. ;-) The interesting thing, though, was that I didn't say I didn't like men, or respect them, or that I hated them - I just said I found m/m centered fic and stories dull.

Are you sure this wasn't just a devil's advocate type thing -- i.e., rebutting the accusations (and I've seen them) that people primarily interested in m/m fic must be misogynist, by reversing the argument and thereby showing its illogic? I find it terribly hard to believe that anyone would *really* believe a female-character-centric reading preference = misandry.

To me, all of this just shows that people's motivations in reading/writing fanfic can be vastly different, and that it's a mistake to assume that they should be the same. Some people might be primarily interested in exploring homoerotic subtext, and for them either m/m or f/f could fit the bill. Some people are interested in exploring the varieties of female experience, and for them, m/m is decidedly not going to fit the bill, but maybe f/f and het will. And so on. These are completely different interests, and trying to interpret one from the perspective of the other isn't going to make sense.

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Are you sure this wasn't just a devil's advocate type thing -- i.e., rebutting the accusations (and I've seen them) that people primarily interested in m/m fic must be misogynist, by reversing the argument and thereby showing its illogic? I find it terribly hard to believe that anyone would *really* believe a female-character-centric reading preference = misandry.

Oh, it was - and she even said so later - but I think if I'd reacted differently, her reaction would have been different, and so on.

Part of what I was trying to say, albeit perhaps ineffectualy, is that there is a good deal of misogyny, or perhaps just plain old sexism in all it's forms, floating around the fanfic world - just as in the 'real' one. And that some slash does indeed fall into this category, just as some gen and a fair amount of het does. This, as it is wont to do, blurred into a matter of personal reading tastes as well and how that affects the way anyone reads a fic and what 'reading' they take away from it.

So, I happily agreed that there is indeed some misandry out there too.

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before I sign off for the night (Nell, I'm coming back with responses for you tomorrow) - what would you call it when one of the partners in a f/f pairing is demonised? Or when OTHER female characters (apart from the pairing) are bashed to justify the One Twu Luv of the couple in question?

Swatkat

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Weird? Predictable? Weirdly predictable? Wierdly interesting? The rip-tides of cultural sexism at work, again?

One of the things about viewing 'womanhood' or 'manhood' as contested terms is recognizing that there are always multiple versions out there - so a story focusing mostly on female characters doesn't just have one sterotype/version of womanhood to work with, but dozens - and these competeing versions of womanhood can be set up to duke it out, as it were, to demonstrate which is the most desirable/acceptable. So, these would be stories in which gender politics remain central - just as in m/f stories.

I haven't actually read much f/f yet - my f/f reading has been pretty limited by not knowing the source materials well enough for the more popular f/f fandoms, so I haven't seen this phenomen exactly - any recs for this sort of thing? And would it make any sense if I have never knowingly looked upon Faith in my life! ;-)

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And, on further thought, not hardly much diferent at all than ostensibly HR fic that makes Michael a nobly suffering god-boy against Nikita's bitchy and incompetent whingeing.

Blergh - but, not all that uncommon.

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First things first. *points to icon* This is Faith. She is my girl (and Buffy too). She is one of those characters who can be paired with (has been paired with) anyone and everyone for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the actor playing Faith had chemistry with everyone she ever shared the screen with, including several inanimate objects like a cross-bow and a stake. The other icon (the one above), is my Buffy/Faith icon. Anyone who knows even the slightest bit about slash (or is unconsciously inclined to slashing) will vouch for the canonicity (is that a word?) of this potential. The beauty of the Buffyverse is that all the sub-text was intentional (this goes for het pairings too), which even shuts up the "but that's not what they intended!" fen, and there are moments when the line blurs and becomes text (as in the one in my icon).

any recs for this sort of thing?

Augh, I'll have to look, since I press the back button whenever I come across such crap (I could rec *good* Buffyverse f/f, though *g*) - but I've come across fics where Joyce (Buffy's mother) suddenly becomes a homophobic, snotty EVIL BEOTCH, albeit in canon she was the person who was probably kindest to Faith in Sunnydale. Or poor Willow (who, btw, later comes out and has TWO on-screen lesbian relationships), who suddenly becomes the evil manipulator standing in the way of their True Love. And the funniest thing? Often, the fic also bashes the MAN in the middle - like turning poor Angel/Riley (Buffy's S4 boyfriend; one of the most boring characters in the Buffyverse) into an abusive piece of shit. As if Buffy couldn't snap their necks with her bare hands if she needed to.

and these competeing versions of womanhood can be set up to duke it out, as it were, to demonstrate which is the most desirable/acceptable.

Aha! That makes a *lot* of sense.

Swatkat

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how much I hate you, because I've finally decided to surrender and rent Buffy DVDs. I just can't pass up such a fertile source of f/f. *Shakes fist in your direction, because I don't need another fandom!!!*

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How's the Xena fanfic? Have you poked into much of it yet?

I watched only the first season or so, and the series finale.....so I've stayed away from the fic on the theory I ought to see the rest of the show first.

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I just recently caught up with all the Xena seasons on DVD -- as I may have mentioned, I never watched the show when it was on the air because it just struck me as so cheesy and campy, from the snippets I saw.

But because of its importance in f/f fandom, I finally gave in and rented them, and found that I quickly got over the cheesiness and *adored* the show. Completely adored, as in "OMG I must now read every single fanfic story out there!!!111" adored. As in, "I am such a stupid idiot and must kick myself repeatedly for not getting involved in this fandom when the show was still alive!" adored.

*Ahem*

So. I am now on the verge of diving into that fic universe, but it's a vast and uncharted place to me -- while I've found boatloads of archives (and finally figured out their fanfic lexicon, which is quite unique), I haven't found a good source of recs to narrow things down. At the moment I'm just stabbing at stories and authors randomly, but I hope to get a better sense of things soon. I'll let you know what I find.

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You've done a good thing - from what I've heard, Xena is *the* fandom for long, plotty f/f. *g*

Swatkat

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Long and plotty? *Eyes widen*

My God, I've found paradise!

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Speaking of newfandom squee - I finally watched the first disk of Firefly last night - all four eps, out of what I now - post searching - know is only 14 filmed eps. Sigh - it is a wonderfully campy show from Joss Weadon.

Gina Torres is in it, in a marvelous kick ass sort of role.

But more than this - OMG!!! the f/f! It is so beautiful! Inara/Kaylee - from the very first exchange between them I was all 'OMG!OMG just LOOK at them!"

So I went running to crack van and recs - and all the major pairings are m/m. Oh, yes, some people have written it - but, not so much in comparison to the favored m/m. And the crack_van summary was written by an avid m/m fan for all the m/m pairing and she was squeein away about from the very first exchange ...see above - and I'm all - Huh. Knew this was a big m/m fandom - was actually looking for it. Didn't see it leap off the screen. Actually - didn't see much leap off the screen from the men at all, really. Sparks, energy, alterness.....not so much. They were all very laid back and manly in a woodenish sort of way. I mean, sure, you could write it, but....

And one of the most popular slashed men actually makes an incredibly rude and ugly anti-lesbian joke in the first ep, one that was designed to hurt and embarass Kaylee (actually, I learned that was the second/third ep shown not the first/second, but still. Early.) It could be sublimation - or, he could be a raving misogynist, or so far anyway - plain old run of the mill homophobe, he's looking like.

I haven't read any slash about him yet - finals to grade and all - but I'm going to be *very* curious about the writers handle this.

Today we have learned that my slash goggles are working just fine thanks, but apparently I only have a f/f pair. *grin*

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WatchBuffyplskthx.

I'll point you to Firefly femslash if I do come across it. A lot of the Buffyverse authors also write Firefly.

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VICTORY!!!!1!!1111!

Now, do keep in mind that they're teenagers, and not Lilah Morgan. :p And does this mean you've finished watching Angel?

Swatkat

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I'll keep the teenaged thing in mind and cut them some slack. *g*

Not quite finished watching, but at this point I like the series well enough to line up Buffy as next in my rental queue.

You are truly the fandom crack dealer. LOL.

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