(no subject)

[swatkat]

Lovely post here that you all might want to read. I'm definitely one of the Cold Pricklies the OP is talking about. *g* "All slashers make the homoerotic subtext of their canon explicit, but not all think it's appropriate to also make the emotional subtext explicit" - this articulates the very reason that a *lot* of the fic in my favourite pairings (slash *and* het) have me gritting my teeth and pressing the back button.

Comments

Re: Part II

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I have absolutely no knowledge of HH, but with most fantasy universes, authors often assume that the gender equations in the 'verse do not mirror that of the real world. This is certainly true with the Potterverse; I've come across fans from both sides of the camp. It is – as you said – a matter of individual reading.

There is - to me mind you - a huge and vast difference between "gender equations do not mirror the real world" and "no gender equations."

In the case of HH, for instance, it is set in a 'real' historical environment - late 18th and early 19th century Great Britian. While the particular behaviors associated with manhood and manly behavior are slightly different than those of, say, the modern United States, and understandings of homosexuality were quite different than our own today, there were *very* definite understandings of what made for a manly man and for a womanly woman - and to deviate from those would be to court social and possibly economic disaster. For a young man like HH, from a poor background striving to make his way in the world through the parital - and only partial - meritocracy of the British Navy, viewing himself and having others view him as the manliest of manly men was absolutely central to his personality. It doesn't especially matter what the content of 'manly' is here, only that there very definitly was a proscribbed 'manliness' - and HH cared very much that he be viewed as manly - by the men he was surrounded by. Almost everything he does is driven by his need to prove himself, over and over, as a manly guy so as to further his own personal ambitions. Which were to be an admiral and so achieve, finally, financial and social security. Any relationship with any other man has to be understood as a constent set of equations about 'how will this act affect x's view of my manliness, and my view of his manliness?' which will all depend on who x is in relationship to HH. Not that this is necesarily a constant forebrain activity - just that it is always there in the same way that it is always there between men and women in het romance.

Potterverse is - to take your other example - is set in modern Great Britain, with lots of interaction with the muggle world and a steady influx of muggle-born wizards, or half muggle wizards - which definitely suggest plenty of mingling. How could modern ideas of sexuality *not* have filtered into the wizarding world? In fact, given that the wizzarding world appears to lag about a century behind the times in many respects - why wouldn't their ideas about sexuality and gender be even more confused and confusing than in the 'real' world?

Dorlores Umbridge was certainly massively concerned to present an almost appalling image of feminity, the girls all appear to be boy-obsessed, the boys all girl-obsessed, they all carry strong - if not clear - images in their heads of how they are supposed to behave and what they are supposed to strive to become, including their gender identities. These may not match up point for point with the muggle POV, but there are going to be assumptions about what it is to be a man, and what it is to be a woman - and given the whole obsessive score keeping mind set of the wizzarding world - at least as we know it in Hogwarts - I can't help but guess that the boys are constantly testing and measuring themselves against the other boys (and not at all incidently the men against the men - see Sirius and Snape sniping), not only in terms of grades or quidditch skills or who they're dating or the points they score for their houses, but also in the subtle and not-so-subtle realm of 'how am I doing on the road to manly now?' This isn't going to go away once the boyloving begins, anymore than such conerns go away when the m/f loving begins. Both partners are always going to be affected by making sure their love object views them as admirable and desirable when measured against whatever the standard is.

Not just, do they think I'm cool, but do they think I'm a cool *boy/man*? - using whatever standards for 'boyness/manliness' are avaible.

Re: Part II

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I'll be back with a response for this, I promise, but meanwhile, I want you to read this:Negative Images of Femininity in the Potterverse (http://www.livejournal.com/users/fernwithy/262343.html). Make sure you aren't drinking anything while you read. *g*

Swatkat

Re: Part II

[nell65.livejournal.com]

This is where being outside the fannish discussions presents a problem

I, um, didn't 'get' it.

I mean - I got the point of the exercise well enough, but I thought the reverse gender qualities assigned were fairly random.....?

And didn't take into account the way many fans would react to Harriet the same way they react to Buffy or Nikita - which would be to belittle Harriet while building up Herman as the noble saviour in times of trouble?

So, maybe I didn't get the point at all?

Re: Part II

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Uh, I understand. It was a tongue-in-cheek response to the endless whines about *every* *single* female character in the Potterverse being a stereotype/Mary Sue. *g*

And didn't take into account the way many fans would react to Harriet the same way they react to Buffy or Nikita - which would be to belittle Harriet while building up Herman as the noble saviour in times of trouble?

This reminds me of another lovely post I'd read sometime back... *goes to look*

Swatkat