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[swatkat]

Am finally home. Just got in (after being stuck in the damn traffic for an hour or so with a very whiny cat and a very jittery father), unpacked (don't you just *hate* unpacking?), and am now (slowly) going through the flist and my e-mails. I wish my brain would work. *sigh*

On other news, how come no one told me that Boone/Shannon is canon? *dies*
I don't like Jack. He's really, really, really annoying. He has these standards that he expects everyone to live up to, and when they don't, he adopts this holier-than-thou attitude that I find extremely irritating. To be fair to him, he tries to live up to those standards as well, and is pretty harsh on himself as well when he fails, but he needs to understand that different people have different standards, different needs and capabilities. A lot of my favourite characters actually have this characteristic (Buffy, for example), but somehow I can't warm up to Jack, which makes this so very annoying.

Speaking of Buffy, I just saw 'The Gift'. Cried. She is so very brave. *sniffs*

BtVS S5 is quite boring in parts (read anything that has to with Glory), but I like the individual character arcs. And why on earth did they have to take up the magic=addiction storyline in S6? Apart from the fact that it's horrible storytelling (you just don't change metaphors like that), it wasn't required - they could've easily done the Dark!Willow storyline from Willow's unscrupulousness re. certain aspects of magic ('Forever'), and her growing to be a very powerful witch.

Maybe it's just me, but Desperate Housewives keeps getting better every week. I actually enjoy it a lot more that Lost (some of which I find quite boring). Bree and Rex's discussion about sex was absolutely priceless ("How about Palestine?" LOLOL!).

Comments

[delle.livejournal.com]

you didn't know Boone/Shannon was canon?


...


and YES YES YES to the Jack-hate. Part of my dislike of the character is exactly what you said - that he's such a stuck-up/pain-in-the-ass/I know what's right and what's wrong and you'd better live to my values and my expectations.

And part of it is simply that the writers have decided the audience loves Jack. Someone has an icon out there, it has a picture of Sawyer and the text reads "even in my ep it's all about Jack".

The writers seem to be working with the expectation that we all luuuuuuuuuuuuv Jack, we all luuuuuuuuuuuuuv Jack/Kate and we all want to see everything thru Jack's eyes.

Ya know? You've got 14 really interesting people there (which is reason #4,567 that I'm pissed we needed to bring in the other survivors). I don't want to just see Jack, watch Jack, root for Jack, care about Jack. I want to see the other characters' POV. I want to see their motivations, what they care about, how they feel, what their expectations, values and standards are: not just in relation to the AlmightyWonderfulJack.

errrrrr......... I ranted a bit, there. Sorry. Welcome back! I missed you!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

you didn't know Boone/Shannon was canon?

NO! I've seen the pairing being mentioned sometimes (but back then I didn't pay much attention to Lost talk), and I assumed it was just the fans being pervy as usual. It was a very pleasant surprise. *vbg*

And part of it is simply that the writers have decided the audience loves Jack.

Love your rant, and ITA. There are so many gaps to be filled regarding the other characters - Kate, for instance. I've seen fourteen eps so far, and they seem to be building her up as the Female Lead, but there's something off about her character, you know? She's nice. She's *really* nice. She's tough, and the only person who can put Jack to his place. She has a criminal background. But there's something about her past and her present behaviour that doesn't quite match... but no, it has to be all Jack all the time. Maybe the writers are planning to make it a more one character oriented show, with all the others as sidekicks, but that'd be really dumb because one of the show's USPs is it's focus on the ensemble. Also, Jack isn't powerful enough as a character to be the lead. If that's what they intend, they should've written him that way long ago (like in LFN or Buffy: there isn't a question who the central character is).

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Hee. Substitute "Michael and Nikita" for "Jack and Kate" in delle's rant, and that's *exactly* how I felt about LFN. And yes, Jack annoys me just as much as Nikita did. Kate has similar tendencies, so they're BOTH really annoying.

I was very careful to avoid mentioning the canonicity of Boone/Shannon because I don't want to spoil you. A large part of the fun with Lost is being surprised, IMO.

As for DH, I am also scrupulously avoiding giving you spoilers. But it's VERY hard to keep myself quiet. All I'll say is that the show's tendency to get better continues up through the very final ep of the season, which is just...wow. Wow, wow, wow.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Well, at least LFN did not pretend to be an ensemble show - it *was* Nikita's show. :p

But yes, I definitely agree with the Jack/Nikita comparison. She definitely has the holier-than-thou attitude all throughout the show (as does Buffy. and Hermione. and Harry, to a certain extent. do you see a pattern here?). But unlike Jack, Nikita was made to see what happens when you adopt such an attitude in a world where things don't work in a black-and-white way. She paid for it. And by often providing us with *both* the POVs (say that guy whom Nikita was supposed to kill in Mercy; killing him would've been the kind thing to do, and Nikita was made to see that), the show made sure that we accepted the central character as a fallible narrator and presented a very interesting grey world where *both* POVs are valid to a certain extent. The same with Buffy, who despite her holier-than-thou attitude *is* the Hero, *is* the most important person in the world. And she too pays. I'm not sure if that's what they're aiming for with Jack - so far, he has Done No Wrong.

I was very careful to avoid mentioning the canonicity of Boone/Shannon because I don't want to spoil you.

Well, I am generally Spoiler Queen (one has to be when the show are aired *years* afterwards), but this was a wonderful surprise. The pairing makes me very, very happy (pervy HP fan here), and I'm actually glad I avoided all spoilers. *g* You know, this goes on to prove that we *don't* imagine all the vibes - a lot of it *is* actually there.

I'm also avoiding DH spoilers, because I'm enjoying it very much this way for a change. *g* Of course, that probably won't be the case with S2 - I don't think I could wait till next year to know what happens.

Swatkat

P.S

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Kate with a similar attitude? Hmm, hasn't shown it so far, but I'd be disappointed if she did. She has a very interesting background - why ruin that?

Swatkat

Re: P.S

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Well, at least LFN did not pretend to be an ensemble show - it *was* Nikita's show.

True. Although that doesn't actually matter to me. Just because she's supposed to be the central character won't make me cut her any slack if I find she has characteristics I don't care for. If anything, it makes me even more hostile, because I feel like the character's wonderfulness is being force-fed to me.

But yes, I definitely agree with the Jack/Nikita comparison. She definitely has the holier-than-thou attitude all throughout the show (as does Buffy. and Hermione. and Harry, to a certain extent. do you see a pattern here?).

Heh. Yes, I see a pattern. And you can probably see one with me, too, although oddly enough (and as I've mentioned before) I don't mind Buffy. She's not a favorite, but I don't actively *mind* her, either. LOL. I do dislike Harry, though. That's probably a big part of why I just can't read those books.

But unlike Jack, Nikita was made to see what happens when you adopt such an attitude in a world where things don't work in a black-and-white way. She paid for it. And by often providing us with *both* the POVs (say that guy whom Nikita was supposed to kill in Mercy; killing him would've been the kind thing to do, and Nikita was made to see that), the show made sure that we accepted the central character as a fallible narrator and presented a very interesting grey world where *both* POVs are valid to a certain extent.

Well...here's the thing. I think the different POVs were made obvious to the audience, but I never got the sense that Nikita ever accepted them as legitimate. In that sense, I don't think she ever "paid" -- she continued to think she was right, no matter what, and in the end she outlasted everybody! I found that extremely irksome and it made me unsympathetic to her as a character.

The same with Buffy, who despite her holier-than-thou attitude *is* the Hero, *is* the most important person in the world. And she too pays.

I guess that with Buffy, she's the Hero, but she also assumes a commensurate amount of responsibility. She judges other characters, but she also *does more* than they do and therefore, to me, has thus earned the right to judge, at least to a degree. I didn't feel that way about Nikita, and I certainly don't about Jack.

I'm not sure if that's what they're aiming for with Jack - so far, he has Done No Wrong.

I honestly don't know what they're aiming for, either. I just wish a lightning bolt would strike him dead the next time he whines about something.

I'm also avoiding DH spoilers, because I'm enjoying it very much this way for a change. *g* Of course, that probably won't be the case with S2 - I don't think I could wait till next year to know what happens.

Yeah...I've actually been refraining from commenting on your posts as much as I ordinarily would, because I *really* don't want to give stuff away. As soon as you finish S1, though, I'll dish.

Kate with a similar attitude? Hmm, hasn't shown it so far, but I'd be disappointed if she did. She has a very interesting background - why ruin that?

She has an interesting background, but she strikes me -- and she's struck me that way from the very beginning, so maybe it's more of a subjective impression -- as having that same streak of self-righteous judgment of others that Jack has. She's not nearly as bad as he is, but it's there.

Re: P.S

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Just because she's supposed to be the central character won't make me cut her any slack if I find she has characteristics I don't care for

Heh, certainly, you can dislike them as much as you want, as long as you accept that the central character *will* to get more screentime/attention than the other characters.

And you can probably see one with me, too

Oh yes! You've been watching Alias, haven't you? You should love Irina. *g*

I do dislike Harry, though

Aww, why do you dislike my boy? *pets Harry*

I think the different POVs were made obvious to the audience, but I never got the sense that Nikita ever accepted them as legitimate. In that sense, I don't think she ever "paid" -- she continued to think she was right, no matter what, and in the end she outlasted everybody!

No arguments on that one – Nikita *did* have trouble accepting other POVs. But I do think she was learning, especially when you consider her arc from 'Nikita' to 'End Game'. The problem with most of S3, and S4 is that the focus almost shifts entirely on Michael/Nikita, and InlovewithNikita!Michael and InlovewithMichael!Nikita, almost wholly ignoring the other aspects of their personality. And then suddenly in FLYF you come back to Nikita and Section, and it doesn't make much sense. I'm particularly annoyed by her conversation with Paul in FLYF, where she is quite unprofessional in her treatment of him (in the sense that she's dealing with him as Nikita who hates Operations' guts, and not as one professional to another) for all her talk, and therefore somewhat hypocritical. And how dumb is the implication that *George* somehow managed to learn 'compassion' (hah!) during his tenure at Oversight? However, much as I despise S5, there's some important development in Nikita's character in this period – all that talk about 'my daddy wouldn't have sent me to death' and 'I will be Nice to my operatives' comes crashing when she meets Daddy. I wouldn't call her survival a reward, really – Paul and Madeline are dead and gone, and Michael is free and redeemed, but Nikita has to live with herself every day in Section One.

I disagree that she never paid, though. I think you could read Nikita's journey from 'Nikita' to ATFEP as one of the end of innocence, and that didn't come without prices.

I guess that with Buffy, she's the Hero, but she also assumes a commensurate amount of responsibility. She judges other characters, but she also *does more* than they do and therefore, to me, has thus earned the right to judge, at least to a degree. I didn't feel that way about Nikita, and I certainly don't about Jack.

Buffy assumes *too much* responsibility, even when it's not. her. fault! *g*

See, the problem with Section is that *someone* has to ask the questions. Most operatives just bear. Some, like Walter, complain occasionally and bitch behind the top brass' back (does that sound very harsh? I've actually been planning on writing some meta on Walter's unreliability as a narrator). Some, like Michael, accept completely and complain only when it affects them *personally*. Some, like Jurgen, don't care at all and find a way to make themselves comfortable. Nikita at least has the guts to ask the questions up front – more often than not, they are questions that *need* to be asked. (things are, of course, complicated by her naivety and stubborness, her personal dislike for Paul and Madeline, and so on, but we're not going into all that right now *g*)

I honestly don't know what they're aiming for, either. I just wish a lightning bolt would strike him dead the next time he whines about something.

Word.

She has an interesting background, but she strikes me -- and she's struck me that way from the very beginning, so maybe it's more of a subjective impression -- as having that same streak of self-righteous judgment of others that Jack has. She's not nearly as bad as he is, but it's there.

Hmm, can't say I've noticed much of that – I'll pay closer attention. My problem with Kate is that there's something off about her character. She's just too nice, you know? No one with her background could be that much of a sweetheart.

Swatkat

Re: P.S

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Heh, certainly, you can dislike them as much as you want, as long as you accept that the central character *will* to get more screentime/attention than the other characters.

It's not the screentime I mind. It's the fact that, often, the show's creators feel they don't need to bother working very hard to convince me that the main character is right about things, because I'm supposed to like him or her automatically by virtue of things being in his/her POV. But...I don't.

Oh yes! You've been watching Alias, haven't you? You should love Irina. *g*

...

Aww, why do you dislike my boy? *pets Harry*

A big yes to the Irina love -- she pretty much hits all my OTC buttons. (I'm *so* predictable, I know.) But Harry? Uh, I don't dislike him as much as, say, Jack or Nikita, but he's irksome. Part of it is just him being *literally* immature, which I can rationalize although the rationalization doesn't make me want to read about him. But I suspect he'll have a hard time seeing other people's POVs even when he grows up. Hermione, too.

The problem with most of S3, and S4 is that the focus almost shifts entirely on Michael/Nikita, and InlovewithNikita!Michael and InlovewithMichael!Nikita, almost wholly ignoring the other aspects of their personality. And then suddenly in FLYF you come back to Nikita and Section, and it doesn't make much sense.

That's a good way of putting it. You put your finger on the main issue, I think.

I'm particularly annoyed by her conversation with Paul in FLYF, where she is quite unprofessional in her treatment of him (in the sense that she's dealing with him as Nikita who hates Operations' guts, and not as one professional to another) for all her talk, and therefore somewhat hypocritical. And how dumb is the implication that *George* somehow managed to learn 'compassion' (hah!) during his tenure at Oversight?

Well, to be fair to Nikita (*gasp* yes, that's me defending her!), I suspect the "unprofessional tone" was quite deliberate. His "punishment" was meant to be humiliation, after all. However, she undermined the strength of that humiliation by the George/compassion remark, because it was so very obviously FALSE. Paul could then justifiabily ignore every single other thing that she said, because if she thought *George* had learned compassion, her judgment wasn't exactly very discerning.

However, much as I despise S5, there's some important development in Nikita's character in this period – all that talk about 'my daddy wouldn't have sent me to death' and 'I will be Nice to my operatives' comes crashing when she meets Daddy. I wouldn't call her survival a reward, really – Paul and Madeline are dead and gone, and Michael is free and redeemed, but Nikita has to live with herself every day in Section One.

I disagree that she never paid, though. I think you could read Nikita's journey from 'Nikita' to ATFEP as one of the end of innocence, and that didn't come without prices.

I wouldn't call her survival a *reward*, but I do think it indicates she got away without having to pay much of a price. To me, "paying" would have meant that either (1) she learned, even in retrospect, that other POVs could be legitimate even if they differed from her own, or (2) her failure to learn that lesson caused her downfall. She certainly didn't experience #2. And while she *did* learn that things didn't always *work* according to her ideals, I don't think she ever accepted the idea that those people who didn't subscribe to her concept of what was ideal could have any sort of moral justification in their position.

The rest of your points are really, really interesting, but I'd like to come back to them later. I'd LOVE for you to write that Walter meta, btw.

Re: P.S

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

It's the fact that, often, the show's creators feel they don't need to bother working very hard to convince me that the main character is right about things, because I'm supposed to like him or her automatically by virtue of things being in his/her POV.

Well, no arguments here. *g*

But I suspect he'll have a hard time seeing other people's POVs even when he grows up. Hermione, too.

More Hermione than Harry, I think, although they both showed some positive signs in HBP.

His "punishment" was meant to be humiliation, after all.

Which again annoys me very much on Paul's behalf, because the *head* of Section One deserves a little more respect than that. And no matter how planned the entire meeting was (which I suspect it was), it gave Nikita every opportunity to say all those things she's always wanted to say (and has said, in more than one occasion, but never in such position of power) - I do believe she was very earnest when she said that Paul lacked compassion, even though the lines may have been written by someone at Centre. Bringing up her father, I think, shows how seriously she's saying all this. That line, at least, was her own addition.

And *why* am *I* criticising Nikita while *you're* defending her?

I wouldn't call her survival a *reward*, but I do think it indicates she got away without having to pay much of a price. To me, "paying" would have meant that either (1) she learned, even in retrospect, that other POVs could be legitimate even if they differed from her own, or (2) her failure to learn that lesson caused her downfall. She certainly didn't experience #2. And while she *did* learn that things didn't always *work* according to her ideals, I don't think she ever accepted the idea that those people who didn't subscribe to her concept of what was ideal could have any sort of moral justification in their position.

I do think she had reached a place where she was capable of accepting that her position was not necessarily the only possible position that could be adopted, generally speaking. But with reference to Paul and Madeline (and therefore, Section)? That opens up a whole new can of worms, really. *g* Nikita, at the beginning of the show, presents a very conventional naïve Everyman's morality – Killing is Bad, Politics is Bad, Compassion is Good, and so on. This sort of worldview doesn't accommodate for concepts such as 'ends justify the means'. Greater good is something people talk about in books, and while the Everyman will most certainly nod along when you mention it to them ( 'greater good' has such a nice ring to it, doesn't it?), he/she will also be the first to baulk when the actual task of *doing* it arrives. Everyman is also mostly short-sighted, and very bad at politics (which is Bad). This is where Nikita comes from. And all of sudden you thrust her into Section One, an organisation that *says* that it's defending the innocent, which is a moral thing, all the while violating every known code of morality. Is it any surprise that she has *extreme* difficulty coping with this world? It's complicated further by what I call her own Hero Complex and her burning desire to do the Right Thing for the Right Reason (which is in fact a quality that sets her apart from your stereotypical Everyman); her street background – a world of absolutes Nikita comes from a world of moral absolutes (Faith has given me a whole new perspective on these things. *g*); her stubborness and her tendency of reacting and questioning rather than passively conforming. Through the five seasons, she certainly did alter her worldview a lot – she had to. But at the end it's still those same moral questions – is it right to kill even one innocent person? Is it right to use not-so-nice means to achieve a good end? Is she doing the right thing? Is what they're achieving right? Not necessary, mind you – right. Do we need Section One? Is what Section doing right? If it's not right, do we still need it? If we need it, should we still have it, even though it is not right? Is there even an answer to these questions? And Nikita needs an answer, because she will never be comfortable in operating in a morally ambigous world.

Part II

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Which was my long-winded way of saying that yes, she will probably never accept that what Section did is morally justified, simply because she doesn't know what the ideal is anymore, or what the standards of justification are.

I also think that the fact that she survived is the biggest price she's paying – she has seen her entire worldview crumble, she has learnt that the things she believed in are not to be believed in, her pride has crumbled (and I cannot stress upon the importance of this for Nikita), she has to spend the rest of her life taking decisions that she can never wholly accept. She doesn't even have a Giles (a Michael, perhaps) who will do the dirty work so that Buffy can be the Hero. Us vs. Them was easy, but now it's all Us. Her.

(and, um, I also had something to say about Nikita's inexperience in and distaste for politics, and where that leaves her now, but I seem to have forgotten what I was thinking)

I'd LOVE for you to write that Walter meta, btw.

I had some of it written, but I lost it in the last computer blow-up. This discussion has been quite stimulating, so I may get to it pretty soon. *g*

Swatkat

[plazmah.livejournal.com]

LOL, of course Boone/Shannon is cannon! Hottest OTP evar!

For some reason, Jack doesn't annoy me at all. Charlie, however, can go throw himself off a cliff.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Gah, no arguments on the hotness of Boone/Shannon. *dies again*

Charlie seemed quite cute early on, but lately he's been annoying me a lot with the 'Claire is kidnapped! Woe!' thing that he has going. It also may have something to do with my complete lack of interest in Claire and her mystical!Superbaby. *g*

Swatkat

[plazmah.livejournal.com]

I thought Charlie/Claire were the most boring pairing on the face of the earth when I was watching Lost the first time around. Now that I bought Season 1 on DVD, they're still boring. But Charlie does have some funny lines that I'm willing to give him credit for.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I was reading a book during the first Claire episode (1.10)- might have to do the same in the next one. *g*

Swatkat