Read this entry in isagel's journal now. Read the discussion that follows and tell me if they aren't talking about our fandom with all it's love for happy!fluffy! stories.
It always reassures me to some degree to see the same arguments/debates being held in other fandoms.
Now if only I could find a "why do you people insist on believing our Heroine is stupid simply because she refuses to treat the Hero as the God *you* clearly believe he is?" debate, I'd be a happy girl. *g*
Now if only I could find a "why do you people insist on believing our Heroine is stupid simply because she refuses to treat the Hero as the God *you* clearly believe he is?" debate, I'd be a happy girl. *g*
I haven't exactly seen arguments like that, but I have seen a few about 'Do we treat the female characters harshly?'(D'oh!) and 'What is it with fans and strong female characters.' They did sound eeriely similar. *g*
I'll see if I can find them again. They were quite entertaining and educational.
And remember, when I say 'strong women', it also includes Madeline. There aren't too many people in the fandom who are ready to think beyond PsychoBitch!Madeline. *sigh*
Like Swatkat I've seen versions of 'why do fanfic writers maul strong woman X so much in my fandom?' that were quite familiar - I think on fanficrants most recently - though I'm sure there are blogs about it too.
Scully from XF was one of the choices, and Hermonie of course from HP, others were in anime - which I know nothing about, but there was clearly something similar people were seeing across several fandoms.
On a different but related topic there is a new essay in fanfic symposium (I don't have the link on hand) on the sexism involved in slaming bad slash because it feminizes one or both of the two men. Like that is the worst possible fate in the entire world, that some man should act more like a woman. The author argues that not only are the behaviors mentioned as examples not unique to women, that there are some things women generally are percieved to do that more men might benefit from adopting. Extended foreplay, just for example. :)
Of course, one of the things that squicks me about a lot of slash in general, and especially some of the defenses of slash, is the underlying assumption that women are icky and men are just nicer and cooler and more intrinsically interesting, and interested in each other rather than, you know, icky women.
That women write most m/m slash? And the most vitrolic defenses of slash and assaults on feminized men? - yes, I do find that disturbing, on some level. Why do you ask? ;)
The funniest one had to be on F_W the other day - someone was complaining about some Harry/Draco epic story because the boys weren't realistically gay.
They are talking about teenage wizards who fly through the air on broomsticks, talk to ghosts, live in a castle with moving staircases, take lessons in spell casting and potions making, and are invovled in an epic battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil - and someone is worried about whether or not they are realistically gay teenagers? What part of 'fantasy world' did these people miss?
I've seen quite a few of them in fanficrants. Scully, of course. Buffy and all the women in Buffyverse. Eowyn and Arwen in LOTR. And don't get me started on my poor Hermione - she's bashed because she's studious, she's smart (and the boys, as much as I love them, are dorks), she's *not pretty*... A couple of days ago I came across a thread in the FAP forums where the posters declared how jealous they were of Hermione because she gets to be paired with all the nice, eligible boys (and men) in fanon. In the last book, Ginny Weasley emerged as yet another kick-ass girl, so she's now 'JKR's own Mary Sue'. *headdesk*
On a different but related topic there is a new essay in fanfic symposium (I don't have the link on hand) on the sexism involved in slaming bad slash because it feminizes one or both of the two men.
I think I read that essay. Was it this (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp140.html) one?
They are talking about teenage wizards who fly through the air on broomsticks, talk to ghosts, live in a castle with moving staircases, take lessons in spell casting and potions making, and are invovled in an epic battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil - and someone is worried about whether or not they are realistically gay teenagers? What part of 'fantasy world' did these people miss?
Heh. I think they were talking about a particular author's characterization. I haven't read her works (I don't read Harry/Draco unless I'm forced to). I'll have to say that sometimes the characterizations in some slash fics seriously put me off. Poor Remus Lupin becomes this weak, physically and emotionally fragile wimp who needs Macho!Sirius to help him through his problems - although in canon he's this very, very resilient, well-balanced and possesses amazing mental strength. The same goes with the Harry/Draco pairing (with Wimp!Harry and Spike!Draco). If the characters have to be OOC in order make the story 'realistically gay', well then, I'd rather not have them gay at all. And it's odd why people chose to resort to that particular device, because the slash is there - and it can be written without reducing the characters to something they're not.
I'll have to say that sometimes the characterizations in some slash fics seriously put me off. Poor Remus Lupin becomes this weak, physically and emotionally fragile wimp who needs Macho!Sirius to help him through his problems - although in canon he's this very, very resilient, well-balanced and possesses amazing mental strength. The same goes with the Harry/Draco pairing (with Wimp!Harry and Spike!Draco).
Make that all pairings/relationship fic and I'll bite.
Because you could just substitute Nikita and Michael for Lupin and Sirius, or Harry and Draco.... Like this:
Poor Nikita becomes this weak, physically and emotionally fragile wimp who needs Macho!Michael to help her through her problems - although in canon she's very, very resilient, well-balanced and possesses amazing mental strength.
And you have exactly why I dislike so much of the fic that qualifies as HR.
Bah. Maybe the problem is the classic (if you can say that about a genre that is less than a century old) 'romance' formula of strong!macho + weak!clingy = hawt romance. Ick ick ick.
Make that all pairings/relationship fic and I'll bite.
Exactly. I fail to understand why it is important to oversimplify these relationships by putting them in the classic formula - when it is clearly quite different in canon. I would have never been attracted to LFN had it not been for the complexity of the show. And it makes me wonder if these fans were attracted by some other aspect of the show - some aspect I (and most other fans I've interacted with in the FFMB) clearly don't see.
I guess it all again comes back to the author's personal beliefs - maybe the person finds herself most comfortable when dealing with the 'classical' conditions of romance, and therefore keeps on incorporating those in her fan fiction. Sometimes it's unconscious, more often it's not. That it doesn't go with the canon of the show is not important, because it's just fan fiction.
Of course, one of the things that squicks me about a lot of slash in general, and especially some of the defenses of slash, is the underlying assumption that women are icky and men are just nicer and cooler and more intrinsically interesting, and interested in each other rather than, you know, icky women.
I'd seen this great LJ discussion somewhere where people where discussing as to why the slash pairings in their fandom were more attractive than the het pairings. Apparently, the canon het pairings are either always extremely shallow and throwaway, or terribly uninteresting. The women characters are often very shallow/boring/whiny after they fall in love, although the men retain their features - so the entire relationship becomes uninteresting. I wish I had watched more shows to comment on this. But I can say that Michael/Nikita or Paul/Madeline don't fall in this category. *g*
When it happens, and I'm not sure it really does happen with truly strong and interesting female characters - of which there is quite a dearth generally speaking, it is often because the only thing that makes many female characters interesting is her search for love and not her character itself (who would have cared anything at all about Ally McBeal if she had been happily married throughout the series? Or most of the sex and the city girls?). So when her search is over she has nothing in particular to do - she may get sort of boring.
Which to me means she wasn't all that strong or interesting in the first place, and that is something I blame the writers/producers for and not the woman - dreaming up fanfic story lines is my vehicle for fixing that horrid assualt on women, not embracing it. But thems my issues, obviously, and they are not shared widely.
The general slasher dissing of the het relationships, of course, is also an assault on the notion that a man can truly love a woman - which is so very sad and irritating as well.
The general slasher dissing of the het relationships, of course, is also an assault on the notion that a man can truly love a woman - which is so very sad and irritating as well.
Not all slashers are anti-het (How is it possible for any person to be so resolutely anti-het? Doesn't that mean you're consciously dissing all real life heterosexual relationships as well? If that isn't silly and juvenile, then what is? Or maybe it's another case of it's just fan fiction syndrome). But sadly, the anti-het section of the slashers is the most vocal one.
I know - but you are the only one living on your street - sigh.
It's one thing to think Nikita is stupid or foolish because of what she actually says and does; another entirely to think she's stupid and foolish just because she doesn't trust what Michael tells her - you know, her trainer, the guy who set up this whole elaborate mission in episode one, season one(!) just to teach her not to trust what he, or section, told her. A lesson he repeated whenever she showed the least sign that she might be starting to trust him, or them, over and over again for the next two and a half years.
I don't care if you think Nikita is stupid. At least you think she's stupid, as Nell said, for a reason other than the fact that she didn't always blindly follow Michael around like a lovesick puppy on a leash.
You can think Nikita is stupid as much as you want to, as long as you have a valid reason (and then I can argue with you *g*). But calling Nikita stupid because "Why couldn't she just trust him? Hasn't he always protected her?" or "Why won't she listen to what he says?"... *grrr* And you can't even argue with these people because they'll end with, "I don't care what you say, she should've done what he said, so there."
The last link? That's the one I was talking about, "Do we judge female characters harshly?" It's a great discussion. There are people from many fandoms putting in their thoughts, and people from both sides of the fence - the one's who think they get judged harshly explaining why they shouldn't be; the one's who judge harshly explaining why they do.
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branchandroot
Hmmmm
Date: 2004-02-23 10:20 pm (UTC)Now if only I could find a "why do you people insist on believing our Heroine is stupid simply because she refuses to treat the Hero as the God *you* clearly believe he is?" debate, I'd be a happy girl. *g*
Re: Hmmmm
Date: 2004-02-24 06:39 pm (UTC)I haven't exactly seen arguments like that, but I have seen a few about 'Do we treat the female characters harshly?'(D'oh!) and 'What is it with fans and strong female characters.' They did sound eeriely similar. *g*
I'll see if I can find them again. They were quite entertaining and educational.
Swatkat
I'd actually like to see those debates...
Date: 2004-02-25 04:42 am (UTC)Heh
Date: 2004-02-25 05:33 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Re: Hmmmm
Date: 2004-02-25 06:04 am (UTC)Scully from XF was one of the choices, and Hermonie of course from HP, others were in anime - which I know nothing about, but there was clearly something similar people were seeing across several fandoms.
On a different but related topic there is a new essay in fanfic symposium (I don't have the link on hand) on the sexism involved in slaming bad slash because it feminizes one or both of the two men. Like that is the worst possible fate in the entire world, that some man should act more like a woman. The author argues that not only are the behaviors mentioned as examples not unique to women, that there are some things women generally are percieved to do that more men might benefit from adopting. Extended foreplay, just for example. :)
Of course, one of the things that squicks me about a lot of slash in general, and especially some of the defenses of slash, is the underlying assumption that women are icky and men are just nicer and cooler and more intrinsically interesting, and interested in each other rather than, you know, icky women.
That women write most m/m slash? And the most vitrolic defenses of slash and assaults on feminized men? - yes, I do find that disturbing, on some level. Why do you ask? ;)
The funniest one had to be on F_W the other day - someone was complaining about some Harry/Draco epic story because the boys weren't realistically gay.
They are talking about teenage wizards who fly through the air on broomsticks, talk to ghosts, live in a castle with moving staircases, take lessons in spell casting and potions making, and are invovled in an epic battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil - and someone is worried about whether or not they are realistically gay teenagers? What part of 'fantasy world' did these people miss?
Nell
Yeah...(r)
Date: 2004-02-25 05:58 pm (UTC)On a different but related topic there is a new essay in fanfic symposium (I don't have the link on hand) on the sexism involved in slaming bad slash because it feminizes one or both of the two men.
I think I read that essay. Was it this (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp140.html) one?
They are talking about teenage wizards who fly through the air on broomsticks, talk to ghosts, live in a castle with moving staircases, take lessons in spell casting and potions making, and are invovled in an epic battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil - and someone is worried about whether or not they are realistically gay teenagers? What part of 'fantasy world' did these people miss?
Heh. I think they were talking about a particular author's characterization. I haven't read her works (I don't read Harry/Draco unless I'm forced to). I'll have to say that sometimes the characterizations in some slash fics seriously put me off. Poor Remus Lupin becomes this weak, physically and emotionally fragile wimp who needs Macho!Sirius to help him through his problems - although in canon he's this very, very resilient, well-balanced and possesses amazing mental strength. The same goes with the Harry/Draco pairing (with Wimp!Harry and Spike!Draco). If the characters have to be OOC in order make the story 'realistically gay', well then, I'd rather not have them gay at all. And it's odd why people chose to resort to that particular device, because the slash is there - and it can be written without reducing the characters to something they're not.
Swatkat
no subject
Date: 2004-02-25 09:05 pm (UTC)Make that all pairings/relationship fic and I'll bite.
Because you could just substitute Nikita and Michael for Lupin and Sirius, or Harry and Draco.... Like this:
Poor Nikita becomes this weak, physically and emotionally fragile wimp who needs Macho!Michael to help her through her problems - although in canon she's very, very resilient, well-balanced and possesses amazing mental strength.
And you have exactly why I dislike so much of the fic that qualifies as HR.
Bah. Maybe the problem is the classic (if you can say that about a genre that is less than a century old) 'romance' formula of strong!macho + weak!clingy = hawt romance. Ick ick ick.
Nell
no subject
Date: 2004-02-26 05:00 pm (UTC)Exactly. I fail to understand why it is important to oversimplify these relationships by putting them in the classic formula - when it is clearly quite different in canon. I would have never been attracted to LFN had it not been for the complexity of the show. And it makes me wonder if these fans were attracted by some other aspect of the show - some aspect I (and most other fans I've interacted with in the FFMB) clearly don't see.
I guess it all again comes back to the author's personal beliefs - maybe the person finds herself most comfortable when dealing with the 'classical' conditions of romance, and therefore keeps on incorporating those in her fan fiction. Sometimes it's unconscious, more often it's not. That it doesn't go with the canon of the show is not important, because it's just fan fiction.
Swatkat
PS...(r)
Date: 2004-02-25 06:28 pm (UTC)I'd seen this great LJ discussion somewhere where people where discussing as to why the slash pairings in their fandom were more attractive than the het pairings. Apparently, the canon het pairings are either always extremely shallow and throwaway, or terribly uninteresting. The women characters are often very shallow/boring/whiny after they fall in love, although the men retain their features - so the entire relationship becomes uninteresting. I wish I had watched more shows to comment on this. But I can say that Michael/Nikita or Paul/Madeline don't fall in this category. *g*
Swatkat
no subject
Date: 2004-02-25 09:19 pm (UTC)Which to me means she wasn't all that strong or interesting in the first place, and that is something I blame the writers/producers for and not the woman - dreaming up fanfic story lines is my vehicle for fixing that horrid assualt on women, not embracing it. But thems my issues, obviously, and they are not shared widely.
The general slasher dissing of the het relationships, of course, is also an assault on the notion that a man can truly love a woman - which is so very sad and irritating as well.
Nell
no subject
Date: 2004-02-26 05:14 pm (UTC)Not all slashers are anti-het (How is it possible for any person to be so resolutely anti-het? Doesn't that mean you're consciously dissing all real life heterosexual relationships as well? If that isn't silly and juvenile, then what is? Or maybe it's another case of it's just fan fiction syndrome). But sadly, the anti-het section of the slashers is the most vocal one.
Swatkat
Oooh!
Date: 2004-02-25 11:17 am (UTC)Now there's a good thread idea. But wait, didn't we already do that one? If we did, perhaps it's time to have it again, lol!
Good threads they may be...
Date: 2004-02-25 06:05 pm (UTC)Swatkat
Oh, Ms Gen...
Date: 2004-02-25 04:41 am (UTC)That isn't why I think Nikita is stupid. *eg* Of course, having said that, I'd be happy to take part in this little debate you are planning. *vbeg*
Re: Oh, Ms Gen...
Date: 2004-02-25 05:48 am (UTC)It's one thing to think Nikita is stupid or foolish because of what she actually says and does; another entirely to think she's stupid and foolish just because she doesn't trust what Michael tells her - you know, her trainer, the guy who set up this whole elaborate mission in episode one, season one(!) just to teach her not to trust what he, or section, told her. A lesson he repeated whenever she showed the least sign that she might be starting to trust him, or them, over and over again for the next two and a half years.
Sigh again.
Nell
Oh, dear Cyanide...
Date: 2004-02-25 11:15 am (UTC)Like they said...
Date: 2004-02-25 06:13 pm (UTC)Swatkat
no subject
Date: 2004-02-26 09:24 pm (UTC)See http://www.livejournal.com/community/heroinesofslash/
and
http://www.livejournal.com/community/hated_character/
and
http://www.livejournal.com/users/taraljc/468923.html
Wow - and - we are not alone. *g*
Nell
Oh!
Date: 2004-02-27 03:21 pm (UTC)Swatkat