Paul and Madeline

[swatkat]

Since we were talking about harshness - are we, the Michael/Nikita fans, too harsh when it comes to Paul and Madeline? Even those of us who actually like and admire them (including myself)? We're always going on about their cruelty and how Michael or Nikita (Nikita for me *g*) would've done a better job as Operations - why is that so? Now that we know all about Oversight and Centre, wasn't what Paul and Madeline did for their own survival, just like the way Michael and Nikita fought to survive in Section? And what is the guarantee that Michael and Nikita wouldn't do the exact same things when they got the power? Your thoughts here. *g*

Nell, tell me why Nikita wouldn't fall in the same trap as Paul in order to survive.

Comments

Re: Help! I can't stop! Part Two.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

And slave/conscript armies have different structures and discpline issues - but respect for officers and morale turns out to matter even in those armies.

You’re the historian, so I’ll have to defer here, but my impression of such armies is that they were indeed run in large part on brutality and intimidation -- and relied on the fact that the conscripts/slaves often had no other options in society or places to escape to. And that corruption and abuse among officers/commanders was in fact commonplace if not the norm. In other words, they were run very much like Section.

Some historians of the Vietnam era army would tell you that mutinies were nearly out of control as it was - not of the group rebellion kind, but of the simple refusal kind. That the high levels of drug and alchool use and abuse and consequent unfitness for duty were a form of mutiny, and while I'm sure the stories have grown in the telling there were enough instances of soldiers killing their own officers while 'in the field' that it kept everybody looking over their shoulders. If you think you might die before your term is up - it is a life sentence.

That was exactly my point. If you had that much trouble building loyalty there, just imagine what it would be like in Section!

No - it doesn't. The whole point of conscript armies most of the time is to pull into service those the leaders of a society/nation feel are most expendible. During WWI, in the US - Selective Service drafted overwhelmingly single, young, uneducated men from rural areas.

Ah, I should have been clearer in my statement. I didn’t mean cross-section in terms of age, race, gender or economic strata, but rather in terms of psychological profiles. A group of conscripted civilians, even drawn from the narrow group you define, is going to have a very different psychological range from a group of convicted felons.

I would guess that Section had to be very careful of the kinds of criminals it selected to recruit and train, and people with obedience and self-control problems would probably be far down on their list, barring other qualities they were interested in.

On average, a group of criminals is simply going to have more of those problems than a group of non-criminals, and no amount of care in their selection is going to eliminate that problem.

But even so, I don't think loyalty would be as big a problem as you do - I think people *want* to be loyal and to belong (those who don't actually get labeled as psychologically ill....), and one of the things that drove section operatives batty was that this desire was constantly stifled/rebuffed in Section as we saw it.

I don’t think the drive to be loyal is particularly strong one, and especially not in people who have already demonstrated a criminal disregard for others. I think what drove them batty was the constant fear for their lives.

Part Three -- my last post today, I swear!

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Most of the post-operation studies, starting with WWII, suggest that overwhelmingly, men fight and die for the others in their unit - and not for patriotism or the defense of family. They are loyal to each other, they trust each other, and their morale depends on how they feel they, as a group, are being treated by their superiors. This turns out to be equally true of draftees and volunteers.

The shared experience of abuse by superiors can actually create small-unit loyalty. That’s in part why drill sergeants behave the way they do.

Small group loyalty is the glue that holds armies together - huge to tiny. (It is also the foundation of many criminal gangs and terrorist cells - for the same reasons.) I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work in Section too.

It often doesn’t work very well, especially in criminal gangs and terrorist cells (which are probably closer analogies to Section than a military unit, in many ways) -- factionalism and coups and fights for seniority are very common.

I think Section could also have fostered an "elite of the elite badasses of the world attitude" - a "no one else is tough enough to risk death daily we the unsung heroes!" 'tude; plus a 'no one else will ever understand/value you the way we do' vibe.

I disagree. The minute you have to cancel one of them for anything less than a horrific error you undermine the pretense at valuing them. The reaction would be something along the lines of: “Hypocrites! They talk about how much they appreciate us, but look what they did to Freddy!” It’s a losing battle.