(no subject)

[swatkat]

Eeee Edie!

Oh, Rex. I'll miss him. But that was a fantastic farewell. *giggles* I see Bree is going to kick ass this season. And how gorgeous is Marcia Cross in pants?

Gabi and Carlos truly belong with each other.

So Zach is Mike's son. Whatever. I can't bring myself to hate Susan, though. Shut up.

*

I need to write this post on Going Postal and Adora and why the Watch is teh best, but all I can think of is: 'Elphie! Glinda! Wicked! Elphie! Theirloveissotragic!' jaybee65, what did you do to me?

*

Ooh, look: Should Have Loved a Thunderbird' by ficbyzee. V. hot Buffy/Faith, with a spot-on Faith voice. I could see this happening in canon.

Comments

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Yay, new Housewives!!

You're going to love Gabi this season. She gets one good storyline after another, and really blossoms as a character. So does Carlos, btw! And Gabi/Carlos...they're just so perfect. *Sigh*

Edie continues to be fabulous. I tolerate Susan for the Edie/Susan slashiness, and also because well, having someone who's a nitwit *does* provide balance to the show. LOL. Bree? She's a mixed bag this season. But Betty! OMG, does she camp it up! She's wonderful. (But can I confess that I don't actually like Lynette very much? Shhhh! The Bree/Lynette people will lynch me!)

I am so glad you read Wicked. I've been all alone in my love for it for a while, and now someone else finally understands!!! It's female-character-focused beautifully-written layered-with-meaning-and-metaphor epic tragedy -- I can see it becoming quite the fannish obsession, if I let it. I will ramble on about it more later.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Yay for Gabi/Carlos!

I may be the only person in fandom who *enjoys* Susan's nitwittery. And of course, teh slash. Edie/Susan OTP!

But Betty! OMG, does she camp it up! She's wonderful.

Hee! I'll look forward to her. *g*

I *like* Lynette, I do - but sometimes she does get on my nerves. Of course, she also kicks ass so that balances it out. But Bree/Lynette? Please. I do believe it can work as a ship - because all ships can work if you can *make* them - but I do not understand DH fandom's obsession with it, and the way they portray it. Who are these characters? Why are they so sappy? Which show are these people watching?

I am so glad you read Wicked. I've been all alone in my love for it for a while, and now someone else finally understands!!!

I'm so glad I read Wicked! I'm so glad you told me to!!

It's female-character-focused beautifully-written layered-with-meaning-and-metaphor epic tragedy -- I can see it becoming quite the fannish obsession, if I let it.

Can you resist these things? I can't, I'm afraid. I'm doomed.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I do not understand DH fandom's obsession with it, and the way they portray it. Who are these characters? Why are they so sappy? Which show are these people watching?

It's utterly baffling. And maddening, because the phenomenon is eating the entire fandom! That's why I stay on the fringes and mostly just lurk. Unfortunately, as you will discover, a lot of G/E fic in Wicked tends to be similar. *Grinds teeth*

Can you resist these things? I can't, I'm afraid. I'm doomed.

I've been trying to resist because I don't need another black hole sucking up my time, and I *know* that if I give into it I will really give in to it. However, resistance was easier when no one else on my flist had read it. If you keep egging me on, I think I'll pretty much be doomed, too.

Maybe ficlets. If I keep myself limited to writing ficlets and vignettes, it will be manageable? *Hopes*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

It's utterly baffling. And maddening, because the phenomenon is eating the entire fandom! That's why I stay on the fringes and mostly just lurk

I know! Every DH fic on femslash_today is Bree/Lynette, and every. single. one is in the same pattern!

Unfortunately, as you will discover, a lot of G/E fic in Wicked tends to be similar. *Grinds teeth*

NO! *is horrified*

I've been trying to resist because I don't need another black hole sucking up my time

You do. It's shiny. *Really* shiny.

If you keep egging me on, I think I'll pretty much be doomed, too.

I'm good at that, you know? It's one of my special skills. A gift, really. *eg*

Maybe ficlets. If I keep myself limited to writing ficlets and vignettes, it will be manageable? *Hopes*

Of course it will be manageable! *benevolent smile* And there will be discussions, of course. We *need* to talk about Elphie and Glinda. And religion and politics in Oz and stuff. And how Wicked is a wonderful reversal of the original movie. And how it's a prefect tragedy.

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Every DH fic on femslash_today is Bree/Lynette, and every. single. one is in the same pattern!

It's true! It's strangely fascinating yet horribly frustrating. I'm not reading in a wide enough range of f/f fandoms to compare, but maybe you are: is this a trend in f/f slash overall, or more typical of DH in particular? What's it like in the Buffyverse, for example? My main samples have been DH and Wicked, and both fandoms are drowning in syrup. (Of course, the remedy for that is to write something that breaks the pattern. *g*)

Of course it will be manageable! *benevolent smile*

It will? *Clings for reassurance* Maybe I'll just dip my toe in then.... *Eyes shiny new fandom warily*

And there will be discussions, of course. We *need* to talk about Elphie and Glinda. And religion and politics in Oz and stuff. And how Wicked is a wonderful reversal of the original movie. And how it's a prefect tragedy.

Ooooooh! Discussions! *Happy smile* Of course, you can't leave out the original original source (the L. Frank Baum books!) if you want to get meta. (People have written countless dissertations and books on the political/social allegory in those books.) And I heard a wonderful radio program once about how the Depression-era radical political views of the librettist for the Wizard of Oz movie infused his lyrics. His name was Yip Harburg, and he also wrote "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime" -- which ought to give you a sense of where he was coming from artistically.

The fact that there are now four *major* "versions" (or AU's) of this universe -- the Baum books, the 1939 movie, the Maguire books, and the current musical (and that's not even counting all the innumerable remakes like "The Wiz") -- demonstrates to me that this particular story has really cast off the bonds of ordinary fiction and launched itself into the realm of myth and folklore. An American myth, which is interesting.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I loved the Baum books - and have re-read several of them many, manytimes. I've also seen the original 1939 movie lots and lots, and several different productions of the Wiz, including the Michael Jackson, Diana Ross version.

I think I really *need* to read this latest version.

And then write some fanfic of my own. Because the world needs more General Ginjur. Seriously and in a big way. I realize that Baum meant for her to be tamed at the end, but honestly - all I cared about was that she was a General, and then ended up head of security for Ozma. How cool was that? *g*

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I've never read the Baum books, but think I must do so now. (Er, some of them, maybe. There appear to be a zillion and I'm not sure I'm quite obsessed enough with learning the originalflavor!canon to seek them all out.)

I would love it if you read the Gregory Maguire version -- as much as a test of your reaction as anything. While I knew swatkat24 would love it, I'm not so sure about you. One, there's your love of the original, which might cause you to be annoyed/disappointed by the differences. Two, you are sooooo not a fan of tragedy, and, despite the frequent humorous moments in the book, at its heart it's a tragic tale. So I'm not sure if you'll love Elphaba, as Swatkat and I do, or just be frustrated by her. On the plus side, however, this is a remarkably well-written book. It also may be the single best AU I've ever come across, and as someone who writes AU, you may find that aspect interesting.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Actually Baum himself wrote only half a dozen, or maybe 8? Oz books - not scores! The rest were 'franchised out.'

Though that is also interesting...come to think of it. Maybe that is part of what has made the copywrite holders more amenable to fanficish things? They fanficced the line themselves long ago....?

Anyway - they're YA books, so it wouldn't be that hard to read all of the Baum ones. Just sayin.... ;-)

Also - Baum actually dreamed up a number of really scary places in those stories, the land of OZ is actually, by far, the least frightening. The Gnome King is a really bad, bad guy, and the plant people and the wheelygigs are flat out terrifying. But - anyway - the point is, they're spun out children's stories - and he retconned like mad on occasion to make older stories and newer stories turn out to be part of the same story!verse. So - I'm not sure that loving the originals would preclude loving another take on the same.... Baum did it himself often enough!

Where would I look at Barnes and Noble for the Maguire book?

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Actually Baum himself wrote only half a dozen, or maybe 8? Oz books - not scores! The rest were 'franchised out.'

Ohhhhh. That's more manageable. I stumbled across a list of Oz books online the other day and it looked like there were about 30-40 of them, and my eyes glazed over at the thought of even attempting them all. Children's books or not!

Though that is also interesting...come to think of it. Maybe that is part of what has made the copywrite holders more amenable to fanficish things? They fanficced the line themselves long ago....?

You know what else is interesting? I just learned that Baum himself helped produce a successful Broadway musical version of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz, way back in the early 1900's. So. Time really does travel in circles, eh?

So - I'm not sure that loving the originals would preclude loving another take on the same.... Baum did it himself often enough!

All right then. Give Wicked a chance, bearing in mind that it's yet another take -- and as much a product of its time as the other versions. Rather than being disappointed, you might actually find yourself impressed at the clever ways Maguire works things into the "new" universe. And if there is any possibility of there being a tragedy you *might* like, this could be it.

As for where in Barnes and Noble...probably just in general fiction. I believe it's marketed at an adult market and not YA. Just ask one of the employees if you can't find it -- it's been on the bestseller list for eons so they'll know it immediately. (It's also a popular "book discussion group" choice.)

I'm eager to find out what you think of this!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's most certainly not marketed as YA! It has a canon f/f pairing, a *threesome* with a *minister*, beastiality and orgies ...

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Er...good point. I guess the Philosophy Club wouldn't exactly be YA fare, would it? LOL!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Speaking of which... philosophy_club and wickfic. I came across these two fic comms - wicked_fanfic seems to get the most fic, but I'm keeping an eye on these as well.

Swatkat

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh nell65, please read this book! It's so *gorgeously* written. Not your genre of choice, and you probably will not like Elphie (Glinda, probably. not too sure about Elphie) - but it's so, so very well-written. *happy sigh*

So - I'm not sure that loving the originals would preclude loving another take on the same.... Baum did it himself often enough!

It's a wonderful AU - I don't think I'll look at Oz the same way ever again.

Swatkat

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

you probably will not like Elphie (Glinda, probably. not too sure about Elphie)

I keep going back and forth on whether I think Nell will love or hate Elphaba. The idealism and commitment to justice might be appealing character traits. But her obstinacy and later bitterness might counter that. That's why I want Nell to read this!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can't say for sure about, either. Her downfall is, in many ways, her own fault, she does many not-so-nice things and nell65 might have things to say about that. But then, how is it *possible* not to like Elphaba? *sighs*

Swatkat

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

What's it like in the Buffyverse, for example?

The Buffyverse is slightly better off. Only slightly - you will not *believe* the places I've been to looking for good Buffy/Faith, and the kind of things that are out there. But it's not this bad - the su_herald regularly links to good stuff (regularly for f/f; not so much if you compare it with the m/f or m/m), like the fic I linked to in this post. Every time I'm almost about to give up, something good gets written and my faith in humanity is restored again. *g*

I can't speak for HP f/f, though. I used to have a very low opinion of it in the past. I think it's improved in the past year - or maybe it's just the dedicated folks at quibbler_report and girls_today trying to rec and promote the good stuff, and more and more m/m fen getting interested in the f/f as well (HBP, with the Bellatrix/Narcissa slashyness and the advent of Ginny Weasley, helped).

But yeah, it's not *drowning* in the syrup. DH fandom scares me.

(Of course, the remedy for that is to write something that breaks the pattern. *g*)

See? The fandom needs you.

It will? *Clings for reassurance* Maybe I'll just dip my toe in then.... *Eyes shiny new fandom warily*

Of *course* it will be fine... come on in, the water's absolutely lovely... *g*

People have written countless dissertations and books on the political/social allegory in those books.

Argh, I only vaguely remember the original book (not the movie. i love the movie. that Wicked Witch of the West is *so not* Elphie.) - I do own it, so I guess I'll have to read it again. It should be an interesting exercise, seeing how I'm in love with Maguire's vision of Oz. *g*

this particular story has really cast off the bonds of ordinary fiction and launched itself into the realm of myth and folklore. An American myth, which is interesting.

Which brings up the question: why? What is it about the story that appeals to the American audience? What does it say about them? Is there anything particularly *American* about it? (of course, if we assume that it's possible to label something as definitively American)

It should be interesting comparing that to my own interest in the story. Hmm.

Swatkat

PS - GIP

Adding on to the above

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

*of course, if we assume that it's possible to label something as definitively American. and then you'd have to define the parameters for me.

Re: Adding on to the above

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Oh, I should probably clarify. I didn't mean "American myth" in the sense of any themes that are exclusively American. Like all good myth, Wicked presents themes that are universal. I simply meant that it was interesting that it seems to be a myth organic to America, rather than something we borrowed/imported from someplace else.

Re: Adding on to the above

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

No, it's actually very interesting. What is it about this story that it took mythic proportions in America?

Swatkat

Re: Adding on to the above

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I'll have to give this some thought. It's a fascinating question, actually!

Re: Adding on to the above

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

And while you're thinking about it: is there something about this story that it couldn't have originated anywhere but in America?