(no subject)

[swatkat]

Proof that the Gregory Maguire boards are not always full of stupid: a discussion on Dorothy and the Goddess of Gifts. I'd forgotten all the picture of the Kumbric Witch that Boq had discovered. jaybee65, does Maguire expand more on the Kumbric Witch and Mother Yackle in SoaW?

There's also some interesting speculation on Elphaba's soul in this thread. While I agree about the parallels between Dorothy and Elphaba - it's quite clearly present in the text of the book - I've always thought of it as *symbolic* parallels than the literal 'two halves of the same soul' theory that the posters here are talking about. I can never quite decide on what Elphaba meant when she said that she didn't have a soul - Maguire is so ambiguous about the nature of souls in his universe, and it gets confusing at times. Do animals have souls? Do Animals? And where does Elphaba stand? Hmm. I need to read that book again.

ETA: Excellent discussion on the Philosophy Club. The moaning over the bestiality and orgies annoys me, but it's an interesting discussion nonetheless.

Comments

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, there's a certain source that shall remain nameless that encourages fen in that direction. *Sigh*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

True. !#$!#%~!~ sources. Still, it's disconcerting to see die-hard bookfans declare that she should return. See here (http://www.gregorymaguire.com/discussion/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000124.html) - scroll down to bookwoman27's post. She has an interesting argument, actually, but she lost me on her penultimate point. It's a bloody tragedy, that's how it's supposed to be!

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Another interesting discussion!

Plant A Note's reply to bookwoman27 *almost* gets it right. Here's the part I agree with:

I think that Maguire focused on her and did foreshadow her return throughout the entire novel. Everyone sat on the edge of their seats waiting for the momen that he unveils the return of Elphaba. And he delivers... just not how the reader would've liked, or anticipated.

What he gets wrong, in my opinion, is that Elphaba "returns" through Liir. You really need to read SOAW to understand what I'm talking about, but the whole point of the novel is that Elphaba lives on in many MANY forms. She has no soul, because she's no longer an individual. She's an idea, not a "soul", and she returns every time anyone stands up against oppression, cruelty and tyranny. In fact, the most powerful moments of SOAW are when communities stand bravely together, even against impossible odds.

Bookwoman is correct about all of the signs pointing toward -- even requiring -- Elphaba's return; Plant A Note is right in countering that perhaps her return won't be in a form we expect; but they both miss what I tried to describe above.

Have I convinced you to read SOAW yet? *g*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

She's an idea, not a "soul", and she returns every time anyone stands up against oppression, cruelty and tyranny.

That makes sense. *nods* She's already an idea in Wicked, if only as the Wicked Witch of the West, and we're constantly seeing the chasm between Elphaba as she is and Elphaba as she's seen. And it's fitting too, because Elphaba lived her life chasing after an idea that no one else got.

Have I convinced you to read SOAW yet? *g*

You had me convinced a long time ago. *g* I just haven't had the time to drop by the bookstore. Maybe I can manage it tomorrow somehow... *hopes*