swatkat

Oooooooh. Tasty analysis! I haven't checked that board in ages, so I would have missed it if you hadn't steered me there. I need to remember to go there more regularly.

Mother Yackle appears in SOAW, but as far as I'm concerned, her appearance didn't clear very much of that up.

I need to read Wicked again, too.

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Forgot to add: the tricky thing about Maguire is that I think you sometimes have to accept multiple interpretations as being simultaneously true, on different levels. And that if you don't explore *all* the possible meanings, at least a little, you miss out on part of the significance.

I know, and that's one of the best things about him as far as I'm concerned. Except that it's also extremely confusing, and frustrating at times. *g*

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But would you rather have a book with a definitive answer, that once you figured out you could set down and never need to reread? I wouldn't.

The process of thinking is always more enjoyable than the outcome, at least for me. Perhaps the best puzzles are therefore the insoluble ones.

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But would you rather have a book with a definitive answer, that once you figured out you could set down and never need to reread?

Oh no, never. That would *ruin* things for me. Sometimes I have to grit my teeth in frustration when the author *tells* me what he REALLY means - as happens with many, many books. Too many, if you ask me. I love the puzzle. Or, to quote Walter, the journey for me is more important than the destination. But that said - sometimes, it *can* be a leetle bit frustrating because it.won't.make.sense. *g*

Reading the posts in the board is filling me with an overwhelming love for Elphaba. She's one of the most amazing characters I've *ever* come across. God. *happy sigh*

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I used to love Kubrick's 2001 until I read an article where Arthur C. Clarke was explaining it all. (I haven't ever read Clarke's novel, and refuse to, because I've heard it *does* attempt to explain everything in tedious detail.) I've managed to forget most of his explanation (thank God), but I do remember it being *extremely* disappointing.

The movie's a masterpiece in large part because of the ambiguity.

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Also, Elphaba must not be resurrected! Why do people keep insisting that she must be resurrected?! It's *symbolic*, dammit!

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Yes, well, there's a certain source that shall remain nameless that encourages fen in that direction. *Sigh*

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True. !#$!#%~!~ sources. Still, it's disconcerting to see die-hard bookfans declare that she should return. See here (http://www.gregorymaguire.com/discussion/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000124.html) - scroll down to bookwoman27's post. She has an interesting argument, actually, but she lost me on her penultimate point. It's a bloody tragedy, that's how it's supposed to be!

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Another interesting discussion!

Plant A Note's reply to bookwoman27 *almost* gets it right. Here's the part I agree with:

I think that Maguire focused on her and did foreshadow her return throughout the entire novel. Everyone sat on the edge of their seats waiting for the momen that he unveils the return of Elphaba. And he delivers... just not how the reader would've liked, or anticipated.

What he gets wrong, in my opinion, is that Elphaba "returns" through Liir. You really need to read SOAW to understand what I'm talking about, but the whole point of the novel is that Elphaba lives on in many MANY forms. She has no soul, because she's no longer an individual. She's an idea, not a "soul", and she returns every time anyone stands up against oppression, cruelty and tyranny. In fact, the most powerful moments of SOAW are when communities stand bravely together, even against impossible odds.

Bookwoman is correct about all of the signs pointing toward -- even requiring -- Elphaba's return; Plant A Note is right in countering that perhaps her return won't be in a form we expect; but they both miss what I tried to describe above.

Have I convinced you to read SOAW yet? *g*

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She's an idea, not a "soul", and she returns every time anyone stands up against oppression, cruelty and tyranny.

That makes sense. *nods* She's already an idea in Wicked, if only as the Wicked Witch of the West, and we're constantly seeing the chasm between Elphaba as she is and Elphaba as she's seen. And it's fitting too, because Elphaba lived her life chasing after an idea that no one else got.

Have I convinced you to read SOAW yet? *g*

You had me convinced a long time ago. *g* I just haven't had the time to drop by the bookstore. Maybe I can manage it tomorrow somehow... *hopes*

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Oh, fuck me. I just lost my entire post...*grumble*

that Elphaba "returns" through Liir
Through Liir? I rather think he was merely a catalyst for the propagation of her legacy - and his *characterization* served to put Elphaba "first", because he was such an indecisive - and undefined - person. Not to mention the incessant comparisons.

But the most important aspect of SoaW - the perpetuation of Elphaba's ideas - ties back to what I felt was inedequately incomplete in Wicked, namely the scope of Elphie's reputation throughout Oz. It doesn't bother me that much because I *wanted* her to acquire more importance/power in Wicked, but it still rings somewhat incomplete. When you think of it, Nessa was responsible for the secession of Munchkinland, and then became a dictator adept at sorcery. Elphaba wasn't known for her activist days in the Emerald City, since she never accomplished anything and stayed under the radar, until she went to settle at Kiamo Ko. I comprehend her importance to the Animal community - or rather, what was left of it - but how could that (or merely news of her association) have gotten out to the citizens of Oz? Is her reputation based solely on her association to Nessa, her reclusiveness and *rumors*? I wonder if the Wizard did anything to enhance this...

I need to reread the prologue.

Oh, the thread on the Goddess of Gifts and Dorothy is extremely interesting. I had forgotten about what Boq found as well...and eep! Going through SaoW, there's a chapter called Kumbricia's Cradle! And I don't want to spoil you, but it fits with the supposed parallels between characters/mythic figures and/or reincarnations in Maguire's mythos.

I find Yackle endlessly fascinating. Even squee-inducing! And no, she doesn't explain anything new in SoaW, although she's quite present. However, the only version of her we see in the old maunt at Saint Glinda's. She at one point says to the maunts she has been "placed on the sidelines of her life, as a witness" "a guardian twitch" (whuh?)
Kumbrica isn't mentioned in SoaW much, compared to Wicked. Nor are Lurlina/Saint Aelphaba and other legends of Ozian paganism. The Time Dragon and the dwarf were sorely missed, because I found them endlessly fascinating as well. *g*

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*Kumbricia, that is.

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I agree that Maguire seemed to have set many of these themes aside in SOAW. But it seemed fairly clear (to me, at least) that SOAW was setting up a third book, so perhaps he'll bring them back later.

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Well yes - particularly the ending. You don't finish a book like that. [/spoiler whore]

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I wonder if the Wizard did anything to enhance this...

He did. He says so in the meeting after Nessa's death, doesn't he? *doesn't have the book at hand* And the prologue makes it pretty clear that Elphaba was quite famous - even if *she* herself had absolutely no clue about it.

I find Yackle endlessly fascinating. Even squee-inducing! And no, she doesn't explain anything new in SoaW, although she's quite present. However, the only version of her we see in the old maunt at Saint Glinda's. She at one point says to the maunts she has been "placed on the sidelines of her life, as a witness" "a guardian twitch" (whuh?)

A witness? A witness to the change that Elphaba would bring? A witness to Elphaba's tragedy? There are also hints that Yackle is more than just a witness, but an active participant in Elphaba's life. Hmm.

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but an active participant in Elphaba's life.
True, and in Wicked the dwarf refers to Yackle as "the opposite of a guardian angel". So SoaW confused me some.

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nell65.livejournal.com

For what its worth - I finally bought Wicked yesterday afternoon. *g*

I started reading last night. So far I can't decide if its good or bad that its been so long since I read the basic Baum books, or seen the original film.

Nell (still fighting to get through Carpe Jugulum.)

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I think it's good that it's been a long time. You need to judge it on its own terms, at least on the first reading. Comparing it to the other versions of the Ozian universe is a good thing for rereadings later.

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OMG I can't *wait* to hear what you think!

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oh, question: I know nothing of the original ozian mythos apart from the movie (and Judy Garland!), but are Lurlina/Kumbricia/Lurlinism/Unionism Baum's or Maguire's creations?

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