Some late night musings
Apr. 17th, 2004 12:14 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
swatkatI was just thinking about the question by our curious friend on the FFMB, and wondering how I would feel about a Section-skewed story with Michael/Terry instead of Michael/Nikita; or a story (Section-skewed, totally AU, whatever) where they would be brother and sister. The only reaction was "Ewww! No way!" That got me thinking more (er, sometimes I think too much) about the widely different fannish reactions regarding canon deviation in the two fandoms I'm mostly associated with.
HP, with all its characters and very little canon romance (thank you JKR, and please keep it that way) allows all kinds of pairings that actually fit in canon. Simplest example would be all the Hermione pairings – Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione, Draco/Hermione, Snape/Hermione, Remus/Hermione (too little), and Krum/Hermione (the oddest thing is – this is the only pairing confirmed in canon, and I've seen this in what? – two fics). And I haven't even touched upon the rarer pairings or femmeslash (OT – I have never, ever seen Lockhart/Hermione, and that is so canon *eg*). But even when the pairing isn't canon, and can no way ever be canon, there is always *some* interest about it. And talented authors can make the characters act IC even as they deviate from canon. Even some of the popular slash pairings can fall in this category *coughHarryDracocough* (okay, so I can't read Harry/Draco). LFN OTOH has pretty limited scope in this aspect, because canon has very specific pairings and centres around them – you can do pairings, but in most cases it would make the characters act OOC.
However, I'm always surprised at the lack of experimental fics of any form in LFN. We chatted about the lack of sex – but that's not the only thing here. I think I'll have to give an example again – Sirius/Remus is canon (yes, it is). There are many devoted S/R shippers who love the two characters and can't bear the thought of them paired with anyone else. But there are also people who don't particularly care for any one of them, and therefore pair them with other characters, and make it work. They do it by accepting Sirius/Remus in their plots. But it always surprises me that there is no LFN story (Mary Sues don't count) pairing Michael successfully with any other character, male or female. I mean, there are plenty of people who couldn't care less about Nikita and would happily see him paired forever with Elena. And canon does give some opportunities – even if they're small. I won't buy the small fandom argument, because back in the days the fandom may not have been as big as HP, but it wasn't too small either. (IMO, it's still not as small we think it is. It's just that there is a sudden dearth of good writers – almost all the authors I care about are here, in my flist *sigh*)
Again coming back to totally fantastic pairings. HP – and LOTR too – has abundance of pairings that are not canon and will never be canon. Except for those few strangely OOC Michael/Davenport fics, I haven't seen any such pairings in LFN. The general fannish reaction will always be "Ewww!" (except with Mary Sue, perhaps *snerk*)![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nell65 talked about the incestfic that never happened (not that I'm disappointed really). In HP, it would happen. And it would work.
I'm sure none of the above made any sense, so I'll just sum up echoing Curious: Why aren't there any different pairings in LFN (hang canon)? How come they never became popular? Why is our reaction so different?
And that said, Michael/Nikita is still my OTP. So there. *vbeg*
I did think of posting this on the FFMB for opinions, but there's no point in spamming the board with my vague ramblings. So, you all will have to read this instead.
~
Good thing: I just received news that my dear kitty (she lives at my grandfather's place in the small town where I come from) has given birth to four lovely kittens. They all seem quite healthy so far, and she is currently bringing down the house demanding food. Bad thing: I have no idea when I'll get to meet them, seeing that I can't visit too often. By the time I do, they'll probably be all grown-up and running wild.
HP, with all its characters and very little canon romance (thank you JKR, and please keep it that way) allows all kinds of pairings that actually fit in canon. Simplest example would be all the Hermione pairings – Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione, Draco/Hermione, Snape/Hermione, Remus/Hermione (too little), and Krum/Hermione (the oddest thing is – this is the only pairing confirmed in canon, and I've seen this in what? – two fics). And I haven't even touched upon the rarer pairings or femmeslash (OT – I have never, ever seen Lockhart/Hermione, and that is so canon *eg*). But even when the pairing isn't canon, and can no way ever be canon, there is always *some* interest about it. And talented authors can make the characters act IC even as they deviate from canon. Even some of the popular slash pairings can fall in this category *coughHarryDracocough* (okay, so I can't read Harry/Draco). LFN OTOH has pretty limited scope in this aspect, because canon has very specific pairings and centres around them – you can do pairings, but in most cases it would make the characters act OOC.
However, I'm always surprised at the lack of experimental fics of any form in LFN. We chatted about the lack of sex – but that's not the only thing here. I think I'll have to give an example again – Sirius/Remus is canon (yes, it is). There are many devoted S/R shippers who love the two characters and can't bear the thought of them paired with anyone else. But there are also people who don't particularly care for any one of them, and therefore pair them with other characters, and make it work. They do it by accepting Sirius/Remus in their plots. But it always surprises me that there is no LFN story (Mary Sues don't count) pairing Michael successfully with any other character, male or female. I mean, there are plenty of people who couldn't care less about Nikita and would happily see him paired forever with Elena. And canon does give some opportunities – even if they're small. I won't buy the small fandom argument, because back in the days the fandom may not have been as big as HP, but it wasn't too small either. (IMO, it's still not as small we think it is. It's just that there is a sudden dearth of good writers – almost all the authors I care about are here, in my flist *sigh*)
Again coming back to totally fantastic pairings. HP – and LOTR too – has abundance of pairings that are not canon and will never be canon. Except for those few strangely OOC Michael/Davenport fics, I haven't seen any such pairings in LFN. The general fannish reaction will always be "Ewww!" (except with Mary Sue, perhaps *snerk*)
nell65 talked about the incestfic that never happened (not that I'm disappointed really). In HP, it would happen. And it would work. I'm sure none of the above made any sense, so I'll just sum up echoing Curious: Why aren't there any different pairings in LFN (hang canon)? How come they never became popular? Why is our reaction so different?
And that said, Michael/Nikita is still my OTP. So there. *vbeg*
I did think of posting this on the FFMB for opinions, but there's no point in spamming the board with my vague ramblings. So, you all will have to read this instead.
~
Good thing: I just received news that my dear kitty (she lives at my grandfather's place in the small town where I come from) has given birth to four lovely kittens. They all seem quite healthy so far, and she is currently bringing down the house demanding food. Bad thing: I have no idea when I'll get to meet them, seeing that I can't visit too often. By the time I do, they'll probably be all grown-up and running wild.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
I don't think this is an answer to your question, but
Date: 2004-04-17 03:32 am (UTC)I don't think a story that posited an alternate pairing, where the other person *wasn't* demonized, would bother me at all. In fact, I've even considered writing Madeline/Charles stuff. (To a degree, that pairing is an inpportant part of my current WIP, although I haven't quite gotten to that part of the plot yet.) But if I ever do, I'm *not* going to make Paul a two-dimensional raging maniac in order to justify it.
Oh, same here, same here.
Date: 2004-04-17 03:18 pm (UTC)On the other hand, in the overwhelming majoring of MarySues - Niktia, where she simply hasn't inexplicably vanished - is writen off as a spoilded brat, a super bitch, or both - of if later on, as a cruelly manipulative witch who will do anything to get Michael into her bed.
I only know of one Marysue, AMW's first story, that treats Niktia with respect, and plausibly posits that Michael and Niktia *were* able to get together, but decided a la Elaine and Jerry Seinfeld, that they were better off friends and colleagues than lovers. The problem with that story was that the Mary Sue was so perfect, with such perfectly rough edges, and all her strengths were themselves implicit criticisms of Nikita - that AMW herself added an epilogue where the Mary Sue was revealed as a space alien who was trying to control Michael via mind-meld. LOL!
The problem with trying to create new pairings set in canon timelines, at least with Michael adn Nikita - whom I've obviously thought about a great deal, LOL - is that for pretty much all of canon their relationship, good, bad, happening or not, is intensely good or intensely bad or intensely happening or intensely not happening. Even when Niktia isn't talking to him, she is mostly very much "Not Talking To Michael" rather than simply letting him slip to the periphery of her life because she got busy with something else. And on the rare occassions that she was possibly slipping away out of sheer exhaustion, Michael made a major play to real her back in.
You have to break their connection to fit someone else in - and that is very hard to do. Not impossible - but really hard. And then question is, with who? There just aren't that many candidates in canon, especially given what we know happened.
For example, I could see Nikita/Mick - but only if Mick is *really Mick*. Nikita and Mick/Jones/Martin? No. For one thing, MJM wouldn't have the time. For another, Nikita wouldn't find the whole mislead-her-about-his-identity thing very attractive.
Nell
Firing away more questions...
Date: 2004-04-17 04:46 pm (UTC)That the keyword: 'canon timelines'. Why are we, as a fandom, so focused in canon when it comes to pairings, but when it comes to characterisation, canon can go to hell? Our use of AU is also very different. Why do you think the Nikita-haters never used AU to pair Michael with Elena/Simone/Madeline/Mary Sue? In HP I've read a few Lily/Remus AUs (did I just confess that? *g*), although Lily and James were very much in love in canon - they even got married, had a baby, and were living happily together until Voldie killed them.
Swatkat
Re: Firing away more questions...
Date: 2004-04-17 06:20 pm (UTC)Though least one writer I know of did pair Michael with Madeline in an AU (Betsy G and it looked great before silk angel forced her into hiding), and there may very well be more in some of the places I never looked - like the Alberta Watson board??
Elena - well, I think Elena is boring. And I don't see being with Elena making Michael particularly interesting, or revealing something interesting or new about him either. Though I have read a few stories about Elena *after* Michael's death where she does get interesting.....
In contrast, I think Remus and Lily would be interesting, just on their own, and then the way that would change the war would also be interesting. And I haven't even read the fifth HP book.
N
Heh
Date: 2004-04-17 07:24 pm (UTC)I quite like Elena - although she is boring compared to Nikita or Madeline or even Simone. Maybe it's her ordinariness that attracts me (the actress was annoying, though). But the question is again, you don't see her. Why wasn't anyone else even remotely interested in her? In HP, even the characters who make the briefest of appearances - like Angelina Jordan or Alicia Spinnet (the Gryffindor Quidditch girls) have someone to write about them. There are authors focused on writing about obscure, insignificant characters. I'm asking a lot of questions tonight. *g*
And I haven't even read the fifth HP book.
Anything I can say to convince you to read it? I'm good at convincing. *eg*
Swatkat
I'm waiting for the paperback - or to borrow one from a friend.
Date: 2004-04-18 12:53 am (UTC)quite like Elena - although she is boring compared to Nikita or Madeline or even Simone. Maybe it's her ordinariness that attracts me (the actress was annoying, though).
Oh, I like Elena well enough. I suspect that one big problem with Elena is that she *isn't* in Section. To write a story about Elena before we met her in canon is to basically write original fic about the daughter of a creepy terrorist/creepy whatever if you make it AU. There's no 'Section' there, or any overlap with the other characters besides Michael and Nikita - and then you're right back to the Michael and Nikita issue. Elena doesn't live with Section constraining her choices (or at least, not that she is aware of it). So - writing about her, again before we met her, doesn't bring us into the rest of the Section world.
In contrast even the minorist of wizarding characters *are* witches and wizzards and go to Hogwarts or teach at Hogwarts or had some role to play in the events we know about in the war with Voldemort...to write about them is also to write about the world JKR has created.
To write about canon Elena is to write about surburbia - not section. (though there is that excellent story about Elena's neighbor - to mention a completely obscure character who never even got a name, but has a good fic about her.....).
But the question is again, you don't see her. Why wasn't anyone else even remotely interested in her?
Well - to be fair, there *are* some good, or at least interesting, fics about Elena out there. Just because the bulk of the fanficdom hasn't been drawn to writing about her doesn't mean no one has.
I've imagined a lot of Michael backstory with Elena for several of my stories - but it is just that, backstory. Same with Michael/Peruze brothers, Michael/Terry, Nikita/Jurgen, Nikita/Gray, Michael/random fangirl....pairings I've alluded to or shown briefly, but haven't ever been the center of my attention.
N
The paperback's not out yet?
Date: 2004-04-18 05:39 am (UTC)Well - to be fair, there *are* some good, or at least interesting, fics about Elena out there. Just because the bulk of the fanficdom hasn't been drawn to writing about her doesn't mean no one has.
Hmm, actually I think I've seen some Elena stories too. But that makes her an exception, I guess, because none of the other characters ever got the amount of attention she got. And it's odd, because I agree with you when you say that she's not Section, which makes her sufficiently less interesting.
Swatkat
no subject
Date: 2004-04-17 04:58 pm (UTC)you got me thinking about why I often gnash my teeth in disgust when I come across a story that pairs up one of *my* pair with someone else: it's because almost every story I've read that does so, accomplishes this by making the excluded member of the pair evil or insane or something.
Now that I think about it, Paul and Madeline *have* been paired with different people in different stories. But they are not successful pairings - they are stories written by HR authors who don't give a fig about Paul and Madeline as characters and use them as tools or background machinery. Do you think your reaction would've been different if someone did Madeline/George while keeping the characters straight? With the initial "Ewww! They broke my OTP!" of course. *g*
Swatkat
Good points
Date: 2004-04-17 05:44 pm (UTC)Well, I have my own ideas, and we'll see (if I ever finish) if you buy them. LOL.
Now that I think about it, Paul and Madeline *have* been paired with different people in different stories.
Yes, in quite a few, in fact. It's not uncommon at all.
But they are not successful pairings - they are stories written by HR authors who don't give a fig about Paul and Madeline as characters and use them as tools or background machinery.
That's exactly my gripe with most (not all) of these stories. They seem to randomly decide, "OK, one of these characters gets redeemed and decides to side with M&N in this one, so since now they're one of the good guys we'll pair them off with so-and-so, while the other one gets to be the crazed villain who gets killed/humiliated in the end." Or they bear no resemblance to the canon characters at all and get paired off with whoever, because it simply doesn't matter!
For someone who actually cares about these characters, these stories are excruciating -- not because of the non-canon pairing per se, but because of the horrific OCC-ness or blatant demonization of it all. But I find all the stories that treat Paul or Madeline as background furniture excruciating, whether or not an alternate pairing is involved.
Do you think your reaction would've been different if someone did Madeline/George while keeping the characters straight? With the initial "Ewww! They broke my OTP!" of course. *g*
Yeah, it would definitely be different. If someone could write Madeline/George without having to demonize/kill/humiliate Paul in the process, and without being wildly OCC, I could read it without cringing. In fact, I could probably even *write* Madeline/George if I put my mind to it. Or Paul/Adrian, for that matter. Or hell, even Adrian/Madeline. Definitely as AU, and I think you could even make any of those pairings work very well as canon if you set them in the pre-series past. (Please don't ask me to contemplate Paul/George, though!)
Re: Good points
Date: 2004-04-17 06:25 pm (UTC)But I've never been siezed by the desire to do so, and such a story has never flited across my brain of its own accord, the way the other stories I'm trying to write have.
And the interesting quesion is - Why haven't they? I'm not strongly OTP for any of the other universes I occasionally peak into, even where I do actually have a prefered pairing or two.
Nell
Exactly
Date: 2004-04-17 07:12 pm (UTC)And Nell, I just realised that you have in fact written Michael/Karl/Simon Peruze. *vbeg*
Swatkat
no subject
Date: 2004-04-17 07:34 pm (UTC)*If* you ever finish? Cyanide, are you listening to this? *vbeg*
They seem to randomly decide, "OK, one of these characters gets redeemed and decides to side with M&N in this one, so since now they're one of the good guys we'll pair them off with so-and-so, while the other one gets to be the crazed villain who gets killed/humiliated in the end." Or they bear no resemblance to the canon characters at all and get paired off with whoever, because it simply doesn't matter!
Word. In most cases, it just doesn't matter. The authors just feel that they have to include Paul and Madeline - they were in canon after all. But it's done carelessly and half-heartedly, and the result shows. They'd probably not care if someone paired Paul with Birkoff (NO!), but beware the wrath of fangirls if you *dare* to write Michael/Birkoff!
If someone could write Madeline/George without having to demonize/kill/humiliate Paul in the process, and without being wildly OCC, I could read it without cringing.
And that's what has never been done. Pity.
In fact, I could probably even *write* Madeline/George if I put my mind to it. Or Paul/Adrian, for that matter. Or hell, even Adrian/Madeline. Definitely as AU, and I think you could even make any of those pairings work very well as canon if you set them in the pre-series past.
*ahem* I happen to think of Madeline/George and Adrian/Madeline as very very canon. Haven't really thought about Paul/Adrian before, but now that I think about it, it does work. That could explain the Adrian-Madeline relationship in a way, although I'd prefer Adrian/Madeline. *g* (She is like a little black dress in a way, isn't she? LOL)
Please don't ask me to contemplate Paul/George, though!
Why not? That sounds pretty canon too. :p
Swatkat
There's that black dress again!
Date: 2004-04-17 07:59 pm (UTC)Honestly? So do I. I even deliberately included undertones of (unacted-upon) Madeline/George in one of my stories, which Cyanide at least picked up on and teased me about, LOL. It would be soooooo easy to take that farther, and just as easy to do the same with Adrian/Madeline -- which, god help us, I probably *will* write someday. (Plotbunnies are already hopping about, I'm afraid.)
As for the little black dress, I've seen more than one person pair her with Walter (although one was insanely OOC, and another just made me laugh, and not in a good way). I've even come across a sincere attempt at Madeline/Birkoff, although *THAT* pairing squicks me beyond belief. Someone even put her with Mick-as-Jones, although that one was just vile (the whole story was just one repulsive sex act after another, involving all sorts of weird character combinations, I think written just for the sake of being as weird as possible).
Did I have a point? I think I've lost it. LOLOL!
no subject
Date: 2004-04-18 05:31 am (UTC)You did? And it's still there? *heads to the archives*
It would be soooooo easy to take that farther, and just as easy to do the same with Adrian/Madeline -- which, god help us, I probably *will* write someday. (Plotbunnies are already hopping about, I'm afraid.)
Hehehe... gotta love those bunnies. *eg*
Madeline/Walter - I don't know, it might be possible. Set in canon past, though. I can't imagine any scenario set in the present. I love Birkoff, but I run away as soon as a story shows signs of Birkoffsex because for some reason it squicks me beyond belief (it's the same with Ron Weasley, I don't know why *sigh).
Swatkat
LOL, yep
Date: 2004-04-18 05:43 am (UTC)>>You did? And it's still there? *heads to the archives*<<
It's in that long one, called "Intersections." If you pay attention to the Madeline/George interactions, you'll see it. LOL.
>>I love Birkoff, but I run away as soon as a story shows signs of Birkoffsex because for some reason it squicks me beyond belief (it's the same with Ron Weasley, I don't know why *sigh).<<
Birkoffsex makes me hide my eyes. I really don't know why! LOL.
Yes
Date: 2004-04-18 05:47 am (UTC)I *was* thinking of that story (darn I love that story!). I'll check - I need to reread some of yours anyway. *g*
Birkoffsex makes me hide my eyes. I really don't know why! LOL.
Neither do I. Poor Birkoff! LOL
Swatkat