swatkat

Some very excellent discussions in those links. Especially with regard to the role of Genfic versus shipping.

I like all kinds of fic, but I have to admit, I prefer gen, het, and femmeslash to m/m slash. Not in an "Ewwww, boyslash" kind of way, just in the sense that it rarely tends to pique my interest for whatever reason. (Reading a story about two hot guys going at it just...uh...bores me. Really! Yeah, I know I'm a freak, LOL.) But never in a million, zillion years would I review a m/m slash story and make any sort of reference that suggests it's inferior because it's m/m slash. That's just stupid.

Speaking on a personal note, it would be nice to find sites devoted strictly to Gen, so that those stories would be easier to find. I know that if I ever write in HP (unlikely anytime soon, but you never know), chances are almost 99 to 1 it would be Gen. (Fortunately, the DE-oriented sites seem to be welcoming of *anything* involving DEs, so I think I'd do just fine there.)

Anyway, fandom psychology is most interesting.

From:

what actually is "Genfic?"

signed, confused

From:

In the sense that I used it, "Gen" means fanfic that doesn't center on a romantic pairing at all.

You write Gen, actually. And very well I must say.

From:

Is that what I've been doing? I didn't know it had a name.

I have written stuff that deals with relationships, and have more that I'm working on, but don't know that it's ever going to be front and center.

From:

I don't care much the hotness factor of m/m slash either. I do enjoy the relationship being explored, but the sex usually does nothing for me (I'm weird that way), which is the reason I avoid PWPs. However, the way some people react, it feels as if writing/reading/liking het is a crime. And considering a lot of the commenters are heterosexual in RL, it makes the matter even more... stupid.

I know that if I ever write in HP (unlikely anytime soon, but you never know), chances are almost 99 to 1 it would be Gen. (Fortunately, the DE-oriented sites seem to be welcoming of *anything* involving DEs, so I think I'd do just fine there.)

Considering my earlier stuff, I would qualify as a genfic writer, and I'm fine with that. A gen oriented site is hard to find, although I think I saw a community once. I'll have to find that link again. But I do know some good stories - I'll rec them for you.

BTW, speaking of femmeslash, are you upto reading Blackcest yet? ;) And if you do find some good Lily/Bellatrix, or Narcissa/Lily, please let me know. *g*

Swatkat

From:

I *have* read Blackcest by now (it's rather unavoidable, isn't it?). Nothing to rec to you, though -- so far, all I've come across is either too silly and-over-the-top, or too PWP-ish. Although I must say, I think something that focused on the Narcissa/Bellatrix relationship, be it slash or not, could potentially be excellent.

The Lily pairings you mention are also ones I think hold great potential, although the really pose a challenge to the writer to avoid falling into OOC-ness or having to resort to something like noncon. I'll be on the lookout. *g*

From:

I *have* read Blackcest by now (it's rather unavoidable, isn't it?).

Yes, I know. I've been trying to avoid it by reading other fics, but I'm simply fascinated by the Black family, and I know I'll not be able to hold out much longer. All the three Black sisters are fabulous, and if I have to read incest to read good stories about them, then I will read incest. Sirius/Bellatrix also holds great potential.

The Lily pairings you mention are also ones I think hold great potential, although the really pose a challenge to the writer to avoid falling into OOC-ness or having to resort to something like noncon.

The HP authors are masters of writing all sorts of pairing, so I don't think it'd be too OOC in the hands of a good author. Now I wish someone would actually write some.

Swatkat

From:

All the three Black sisters are fabulous, and if I have to read incest to read good stories about them, then I will read incest.

Yes, that's the conclusion I have relcutantly reached, too. Actually, I came across a decent one about Andromeda and Bellatrix, and it wasn't even incest. I believe I rec'd it to you already, but if not, let me know.

Sirius/Bellatrix also holds great potential.

I've come across some, but nothing I cared for very much yet. But if I find a good one, I'll let you know.

The HP authors are masters of writing all sorts of pairing, so I don't think it'd be too OOC in the hands of a good author. Now I wish someone would actually write some.

Considering how enormous this fandom is, I've been surprised at how little there actually is of the types of stories I'm looking for. *Sigh* Why am I always drawn toward whatever there's a scarcity of?

From:

Being drawn toward whatever is scarce, but where the ratio of good/interesting to bad might be a little better - or like me, falling hard for the canon OTP and having to wade through mountains and mountains of garbage produced by people who, apparently, share my taste. Sigh. ;)

Nell

From:

It's six of one, half dozen of the other, really. Both result in lengthy searches to find the good stuff! LOL.

From:

Not that I'm that interested in OTP per se, but there's such an incredible amount of stuff -- I'll drown. It was bad enough reading all the LFN work I could find in an obsessive compulsive kind of way. This would be suicide.

From:

Actually, I came across a decent one about Andromeda and Bellatrix, and it wasn't even incest. I believe I rec'd it to you already, but if not, let me know.

Yes, you did, and I enjoyed it immensely. It was the first, and still, the only decent Andromeda fic I've read - seeing Bellatrix through Andromeda's eyes was quite an experience.

Swatkat

From:

You made me start looking, darn you. I found several Lily /Black sister pairing stories, as it turns out.

This one (http://www.livejournal.com/community/hp_girlslash/225860.html#cutid1) isn't too bad.

From:

I read the links - and enjoyed them, thanks - and, wow. Geeze. What dopes there are out there. Which I knew, of course, but every now and then it still comes as a shock.

The most interesting bits, for me anyway, were the replies where people explained why they like slash and not het - though most claimed they wouldn't call het icky. Which I will take with a grain or two of salt, thanx. *g*

One of them, I can't remember where, was explaining that she liked slash because it got rid of the power imbalance that is there with het (and she said she didn't like age-gap slash because it put the power imbalance back front and center, which was interesting too).

And I was like, huh, wow. People can be so different. Because I think watching two interesting and tough people, namely Michael and Nikita, wrestle with that very same power imbalance is the most intersting thing about my own explorations of fanfic - almost all of which *begin* one way or another with them getting together in a formal way, and take it from there as they wrestle with how to balance independence and interdependence. So I can't imagine what would possibly be interesting about a ship story with a ship that has no internal tensions!

Of course, I'm just enough of a Foucaultian to believe that *all* human relationships rest on power imbalances, because there is no such thing as perfectly equal amounts of power in interactions as complex and charged as human/human interations. Which, I suppose is why I think of lot of slash fails, at a very basic story telling level, because the slash ship has no tension.

For example, I read an LOTR fic that ~delle rec'ed, which was about Rohan and Gondor on the eve of Boromir's departure for Rivendell. It was really great, capturing the feel of things slowly shifting into danger, subtle portents everywhere - except - that the author had Boromir and Eomer wandering through Rohan as, far as I could tell, an open and happily married couple. Hello? In a semi-medieval world obessesed with bloodlines no one, least of all themselves, blinks at the heirs to two houses, one the heir to Gondor itself (essentially, no one knew about Aragorn yet) no less, linking themselves in an internally tension free homosexual relationship to the apparent total exclusion of any sexual interest in women? Two powerful young lords and warriors of allied kingdoms on the verge of war against an ancient and terrible foe with kings/lords who are slipping into stranger and stranger mental lands who have NO issues of power imbalances between themselves? Did they lose/misplace their testosterone somewhere?

So, it isn't the slash per se here, it was the la la la happy slash in an environment where it should have been anything but happy that was - well - weird to me. And I honestly thought the author could have dropped that entire element - *as it stood* - and you would not only not have missed it, the story might have been stronger for the clearer focus on the mood. And I think a fair amount of even the 'good' slash has this problem.

Of course, then it would have been the dreaded 'gen' and not had teh sex, so maybe she made the right choice to get the widest possible readiership. Bah. Poxes all round.

Nell

From:

Of course, I'm just enough of a Foucaultian to believe that *all* human relationships rest on power imbalances, because there is no such thing as perfectly equal amounts of power in interactions as complex and charged as human/human interations.

Exactly.

But it's *very* interesting that several slash-only readers emphasized the more evenly-distributed power dynamic as being what drew them to slash. I'm going to have to give that some thought.

On a different tangent, I've sometimes wondered if some of those who find het "ewwwww" do so because they are objectifying their characters as sexual objects, and are uncomfortable doing that to a female character because that's too much of a stand-in for themselves.

From:

But it's *very* interesting that several slash-only readers emphasized the more evenly-distributed power dynamic as being what drew them to slash. I'm going to have to give that some thought.

Yes - I thought so too.

Especially because I see Michael and Nikita as having a fairly evenly-distributed power dynamic, particualarly as the series progressed (which may be one of many reasons that I like the later seasons as much or better than the first...hmmm, food for thought, that....); and certainly in terms of their personal relationship Paul and Madeline were evenly matched, one sometimes up, sometimes down, depending. And it was these interesting relationships that drew me to LFN, to the fandom and eventually to reading and finally writing fanfic of my own. So I've never really needed slash - at least, not in that sense - to enjoy tangled and subtle ships. I also don't see a tangled and subtle ship as impossible just by virtue of it being het. LOL!

By extension, of course, I can't see why other fandoms with interesting and complex women couldn't provide fodder for good, exciting het-ship fics, as well as f/f ones. It is the relationship itself that drives good ship fic, and if the relationship is interesting - what does it matter who makes it up? Though as I said before, I like my fic with women in them, if at all possible. Just a personal preference.

Of course, this also gives even more interest to a theory I saw floated once that Michael/Nikita - and to some degree Madeline/Operations as well - is, essentially, a slash relationship. Hidden, fraught, against the rules, against good sense, subtle yet powerful shifts in power depending on circumstance....

Nell

From:

But it's *very* interesting that several slash-only readers emphasized the more evenly-distributed power dynamic as being what drew them to slash. I'm going to have to give that some thought.

Yes - I thought so too.

A lot of it comes from the fact that the it's the HP fandom. HP het has now spread from ff.net and FAP to a variety off other places, but right from those days, the het authors have often been guilty of reducing the relationships to happy!fluffy!ideal!situations. Take Harry/Hermione - one is a bossy, kick-ass, non-nonsense person, and the other is impulsive, often thoughtless, and quite bossy in his own way. Instead of dealing with the power dynamics it becomes happily ever after, which is probably what drew many authors to the slash relationships like Harry/Snape and Harry/Draco, which are all about slash. IMO, it's a combination of frustration at not finding what you want and therefore switching to a better alternative, love for the characters, *and* the hot sex factor.

However, it's wrong to say "it happens only in het", because I've read an equal number of het stories that deal with these issues, and Harry/Snape slash stories where Harry goes on from hating Snape to being his loving slave in a moment.

Though as I said before, I like my fic with women in them, if at all possible. Just a personal preference.

Me too.

Of course, this also gives even more interest to a theory I saw floated once that Michael/Nikita - and to some degree Madeline/Operations as well - is, essentially, a slash relationship.

Well, that goes on to change the definitions of het and slash then. If het = happy!fluffy! and slash = angst!power! then I certainly agree. *g*

For me, slash is all about exploring two characters in a slightly different way. That's all. I don't care about the love and I don't care about the sex.

Swatkat

From:

"Of course, then it would have been the dreaded 'gen'"

What's so objectionable about "gen?"

In a strange way, I think some people look to slash fiction as they look to "gay culture" in general, as a purer and less tarnished way of relating to other people. It's essentially the view of the outsider, assigning values they hold and don't find in their own world, to this "other" place. (rather like Rima the Bird Girl, actually)

In the end, all stories, het, slash or gen, are about people, and people are complicated, messy, inconsistent, and pretty much all we have.

From:

What's so objectionable about "gen?"

Nothing, as far as I - and I think a huge amount of fanfic readership as well - am concerned. I like it, because as you point out, all human relationships are messy and fascinating - and one or more of those threads had several people saying - "how come there isn't a specific 'gen' category in my fandom archives, anyway?"

But - I think fanfic smut is *very, very* popular (and hey, I read that too! LOL!), and slash is the hottest "cool" smut category in several of the bigger fandoms (anime, LOTR, HP), so if you want the 'cool' kids to rec your stuff, it better fit into their prefered category - which, at present, is slash.

Also, in LOTR at least, I think there is more than a suspicion that a lot of the 'gen' fic is generally, one way or another, a rebuke of slash fiction - in particular the sex/smut obessession if not teh hot gayness specifically - though that can be there too. A suspicion that has some (a lot?) grounding in experience. So, yeah, I think there is a good bit of not-so-hidden hostility on the part of the cool or wannabe cool slashers to LOTR (or HP or Anime) fic that claims to be 'gen'.

In a strange way, I think some people look to slash fiction as they look to "gay culture" in general, as a purer and less tarnished way of relating to other people. It's essentially the view of the outsider, assigning values they hold and don't find in their own world, to this "other" place. (rather like Rima the Bird Girl, actually)

That is one of the most interesting thoughts I've seen about the whole slash phenomon. Wow. And it really fits many, many explanations/defenses of slash I've read, particularly the ones that defend slash that renders one or more of the male characters as less, well, masculine than canon seems to suggest. Because it pushes it all into the realm of fanatsy...hmm. Gonna think about that some more....

Nell

From:

and sexual orientation. With the recent slight devillifiying of gay culture (or for some people, the non-sexual aspects of gay culture) it seems to me that the majority is again looking to the outside minority for some kind of untainted place, which they can objectify, label, and then co-opt. Sounds like the voyages of discovery and colonization to me.

From:

I must ponder this, and come back to discuss.

From:

More please, both of you.

Swatkat

From:

Also, in LOTR at least, I think there is more than a suspicion that a lot of the 'gen' fic is generally, one way or another, a rebuke of slash fiction - in particular the sex/smut obessession if not teh hot gayness specifically - though that can be there too.

A lot of gen fic is, in a way, a reaction against the "pairing-oriented fic is the way of life" phenomenon. In HP, at least.

Swatkat

From:

A lot of gen fic is, in a way, a reaction against the "pairing-oriented fic is the way of life" phenomenon. In HP, at least.

Why can't it ever just be because the author simply wants to tell a story? I think I'm obviously way too idealistic. LOLOL.

From: