swatkat

Of course, it all happened while I was at work and not able to post on LJ, so I was very much just an observer, but I honestly cannot understand why the OP pulled the plug on the conversation so quickly.

Me too, but the OP obviously doesn't enjoy arguing and agreeing to disagree as much as we do. And from reading her LJ it also occured to me that she probably was not very confident with the essay, and wasn't expecting too many readers either, so the presence of so many of us may have startled her. And because she's a commenting necessarily as an outsider, she's maybe more sensitive to the comments of us 'insiders' than she'd normally be. Only, no one was attacking - only pointing out that you can't diss fics in a fandom you don't read in, that too in a forum where you're supposed to pimp fics in the said fandom. I know that at least *one* person thought that there are no good fics to be found (it's there in the thread), and I'm pretty darn sure there are more.

Perhaps it's because I know that nell65 and jaybee65 can happily - and politely - argue about fan fiction for hours (days? weeks? LOL!) both with each other and anyone else who cares to join in, but I think it's a great pity that the discussion was closed down.

Months, if you let them. Unless there's some other thread to distract them, of course. *g*

Swatkat

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And from reading her LJ it also occured to me that she probably was not very confident with the essay, and wasn't expecting too many readers either, so the presence of so many of us may have startled her. And because she's a commenting necessarily as an outsider, she's maybe more sensitive to the comments of us 'insiders' than she'd normally be.

I went back and read the whole thing again, and that certainly could be the case. It's easier to be dismissive of a group when you have no example sitting in front of you, contradicting your stereotype.

I know you read much more widely than I do -- is the kind of discussion (lively/respectful) that we're referring to (and using Nell and JayBee as an example of) that rare in other fandoms?

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I think one of the things that set my back up was the impression she gave of LFN fandom - vidders or ficcers - as being made up only of semi-literate noobs. Which of course *was* proabaly easy to make because she doesn't know that she knows anyone involved - and didn't think they would find out.

The only idea I was trying to get across was that some of the fic *is* good, and in my view in about the same proportion as far as I can tell to other fandoms fics. And that as she hadn't read very much LFN fic, or sought out any recommendations from folks who *do* know the contents of the archives and various smaller sites with stashes of fic, her pronounement that it was all bad was a little hasty. I'm still blinking that even after admitting that she hadn't read very much, she was nonetheless certain that as a whole LFN fic is worse than most.

She also seemed to think LFN is a dead or nearly dead fandom. And one that no one else could possibly have spent time in and then, you know, like her, branched out into other fandoms and fanish activities.

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heh. we're all feral Nell, we don't leave our caves.

*eg*

actually, I liked her use of feral; it certainly fits a lot of LFN fen...

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Well - she's certainly acting like she got set upon by hyenas.

Obviously to have folks show up to offer and defend a counter opinion surprised and angered her. I just can't figure out why. Doesn't anyone disagree about anything in the Buffy and Spuffy fandoms? Debate with each other about which fics are really the best and why? Compare and contrast reading tastes - like Jaybee's preference for tragedy over classical comedy, or my nearly opposite reaction, which leads us to think very different fic are really good?

Who knows. I am mildly sorry she was so upset she felt she had to lock that thread - though I also found it funny in an OMG it's a wank come to life! sort of way. *eg*

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That's what I found most confusing. The Buffyverse has rabid kerfluffles all the time concerning issues of one true pairings, slash vs. het, whether Spike obtained redemption without first getting a soul, etc., and it's not unique in that respect. Perhaps the reaction from the author and the mod was prompted by the venue - maybe even polite disagreement is not the norm for these essays? I don't often read the comments so I can't say.

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I can manage that.

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The only idea I was trying to get across was that some of the fic *is* good,

And she seemed remarkably unwilling to concede even the *possibility* of this being true. Instead, she would always come back with the response that "some people" might be able to find things they enjoy, assuming they didn't have high standards.

and in my view in about the same proportion as far as I can tell to other fandoms fics.

A proposition she flatly denied. And yet she admitted that she hadn't looked at much of a sampling, and had no intention of doing so.

Trying to read between the lines, what I think she was *really* saying is that she doesn't think LFN has the same proportion of high-quality fic as BtVS, where she apparently found well written stories without having to look hard at all. I don't have much of an opinion on that one way or another, because it's a fandom I do not and never will read in (I didn't like the series much). For all I know, she might be right. But instead of saying that, which may or may not be defensible, she made the rather careless statement that LFN is "a vast wasteland" and that it's notably worse than the average fandom, overall. Judging by the sampling I've made of fic from other fandoms, I don't think that's accurate.

Moreover, while her assertion might have been more appropriate in another community, it seemed a very poor idea at a community which is supposed to be about pimping a pairing.

Oh, well.

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I know you read much more widely than I do -- is the kind of discussion (lively/respectful) that we're referring to (and using Nell and JayBee as an example of) that rare in other fandoms?

I honestly have no idea about BtVS fandom, but it's definitely not rare in HP. We have

hp_essays, and numerous other splinter discussions in various LJs, and all forums in the websites. And from the various cross-fandom meta posts I've seen, it shouldn't be very rare elsewhere either.

Swatkat

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but it makes this particular hubbub all the more mysterious

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Months, if you let them. Unless there's some other thread to distract them, of course. *g*

Hey, so I'm easily entertained. ;-) Just don't ever lock the two of us in a room together and then forget to come check on us -- we might starve before we finish whatever we're debating. *g*

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Finish? What is this word - finish? I do not know this word. I do not think this word is part of my vocabulary.....*eg*

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I'm still boggled. She *dismissed* the entire LFN fic - and she didn't think anyone might disagree with that?

She'd be OK with me deciding that all Buffy fic sucks because I don't like it? No one in Buffy would take umbridge (hee!) at that?

This is what she said: I do not read fic in this fandom because I’ve found it to be painfully bad, but someone gave me these links. I can’t vouch for quality and they looked pretty iffy, but people less nitpicky than I might find something of value, or a place to start. Now, pardon me for being stupid, but I don't see her saying "I've tried a few fics at [whatever site she might have tried], and they weren't to my taste...] I read someone who loudly proclaims her Editorial Elitest Status saying that LFN fic is painfully bad.

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Not only did she think no one would disagree, she seems to think it was rude and mean and an expresion of fannish politics and hidden agendas to do so.

Because it was only her opinion that all LFN fanfic which she hadn't read was painfully bad, that the fandom as a whole has low standards and no talent, and that if someone were weakminded enough to LIKE some LFN fanfic, even to think some of it *good,* it must only be because they weren't looking for such conventional things as an interesting plot, solid mechanics, and clear style.

Dude. My agenda was NOT hidden. It was to offer my counter opinion that some LFN fic is very good. Not because my standards are lower than hers, but because I've read most of what's out there, and I've found good things.

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well, what she seems to have missed/ignored was that the entire point of ship_manifesto is to pimp the fandom. for a show that's long since out of production - and with the DVD problems WBs been giving us - the only LFN fandom that exists right now is fanfiction. (thank GOD

gwen_r didn't stumble across Michael's Retreat...)

oh, and her vids. and she sure wasn't shy about pimping her vids.

anyway, back to my point: so if she's pimping Michael/Nikita, isn't she pimping LFN fanfic? and when she, in her position as "expert" - which she IS, by writing this essay - says "I think all LFN fic sucks eggs", aren't her readers going to accept that as truth? ya think non-LFN people are going to think "gee, I think I'll hit a few of these links anyway, even if

gwen_r thinks the fics are tom jam?"

no one said she wasn't entitled to her opinion. what we - you and Jaybee, actually, most eloquently - were pointing out was that her opinion was based on ... nothing. it was just her opinion, but not one she'd researched at all. [me, I just wanted to get some good recs out there, since the links gwen had given weren't the best.]

Personally, I'm most impressed with the assertion by her Buffy group that Nikita has more crapfic than any other fandom out there (and Buffy, as we all know, has nothing but the best...). Because they say so. Not because they've actually read any LFN fic, or asked for recs or anything...

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Goodness, she certainly seems to have taken the whole thing quite seriously. She's made more than one reference to the fact that the entire 24-hour period was miserable because of this.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, even from her perspective -- so a handful of people whose opinions you don't respect in the first place grumbled about one of your essays, and you suspect it's because you didn't "worship the right people" in their fandom (which is a "vast wasteland", anyway). Why would you care? And yet she apparently does....

Very puzzling.

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She might have noticed that the most thoughtful and detailed responses (not to mention the longest) were pretty much all calling her credentials into question. The other comments seemed much more glib to me.

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and Buffy, as we all know, has nothing but the best...).

Okay, so are all those mushy, gushy Buffy/Faith fics written by non-Buffy fen, then?

Swatkat

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ya think non-LFN people are going to think "gee, I think I'll hit a few of these links anyway, even if gwen_r thinks the fics are tom jam?"

yes, exactly, this is what bothers me so much. I'm saying this from my own experience - the essayist is seen as an expert, someone who can be trusted with their opinion and judgement: the B/F essayist totally convinced me to read, and provided me with some great fic links that sealed my love for the pairing. The Snape/Hermione essay OTOH was disappointing because the essayist didn't say "Yes, read these fics, dammit!", and only recced some of the most popular fics.

Swatkat

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I'm still boggled. She *dismissed* the entire LFN fic - and she didn't think anyone might disagree with that?

I'm trying to figure it out, because she honestly seems like a sane person and wrote a really great essay... Maybe she didn't expect so many of us LFNers to be so LJ-savvy and turn up there with feedback that was less than glowing? She probably failed to recognise that we, as active fans in the fandom, would like to pimp our beloved fandom and pairing in this comm, and therefore the sweeping generalisation 'all fic in LFN is BAD' (no one says there isn't badfic, really) would come across as quite offensive to us. And she definitely didn't realise that such a statement, coming from an outsider, would cause more trouble than it would from a regular participant.

Swatkat

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Hard to say.

Judging by her remarks in the comm and her own LJ, she really genuinely believes LFN is a particularly bad fandom. She seems to feel that she was simply being honest, and that the problem isn't that she was offensive, but that we can't handle honesty.

What she doesn't seem to get is that her honesty wasn't based on anything reasonable, like a review of a decent-sized sample of fic. And that therefore, since she didn't have much of a basis for her opinion, it wasn't very wise to assert it. Or to get defensive when someone disagreed with her conclusion.

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And unfortunately at this point I'm sure she would sooner chew glass than even read a rec'ed LFN HR fic, much less find anything of merit in it. Rip it to shreds more like. Which isn't even difficult to do with the classic English LIt canon if you've got a mind to...bah.

Her whole "everyone knows" that LFN fanfic is "particularly bad" is maddening because there is no possible rejoinder once she turned it into well "you're just personally upset because I said all the fic in your fandoms sucks. Not that I've read very much or even followed the links on the pages I did mange to find in my not especially exhaustive search of the interweb. And you can't make me read or like any more than I've already peeked at. And if you do like any of that garbage it is because your standards are lower than my exquistely fine ones. And if you disagree with my empty assessment it is because you can't face honesty."

Well. Um. Yeah. Once you've turned into a "stopped beating your wife yet?" proposition it is pretty unanswerable.

If she'd just said "I don't *like* LFN M/N fic very much as it is mostly sappy romance fic" - who of us would have disagreed? Instead she made it an assertion of oveall quality based on a small, random sample.

I was actually thinking of looking around for some Spuffy links. Thanks to her, I will be staying far away as at this point I'd find it garbage on principle - which is hardly fair to the authors in question.

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I got the clear impression that she views the fandom as tiny and made up of only squeeing fangirls for whom MR has become shorthand (and I noted with some dismay that the first link she said "someone gave her" was to the general MB for Michael's Retreat, not the fanfic pimping thread Gen started there). Not thoughtful or smart enough to read the essay or comment, apparently.

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oh, god, was it? I really didn't notice.

if her only exposure to the current fandom are the squee-ers and thinly disguised RPF that's posted over there, no WONDER she thinks LFN is a vast wasteland for fic.

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~delle, in the interest of full disclosure, I'll tell you that MR was my first Internet home after the Warner Brothers site went pear-shaped, and I still consider it home. A crazy, dysfunctional home where the cousins who often embarass the family seem to visit regularly! I think, though, that there are intelligent folk there who stand on the side at times and watch in horror...at things like that RPF Catsma tried her best to hijack. *Is mortified*
I think Gen or Swatkat would be willing to vouch, however, that I am from the somewhat saner half of the MR family.

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::cring::

I are embarressed.

I'm sure there are plenty of sane, kind, interesting women at MR. And I'd never make assumptions about a particular poster based on her 'home' board.

Obviously, MR is one of my least favorite boards. But, you're happy there and that's all that matters. Hope I didn't offend too badly.

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I just wanted to be truthful. I will email you if that's ok, to not clog up the LJ :)

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