Paul and Madeline

[swatkat]

Since we were talking about harshness - are we, the Michael/Nikita fans, too harsh when it comes to Paul and Madeline? Even those of us who actually like and admire them (including myself)? We're always going on about their cruelty and how Michael or Nikita (Nikita for me *g*) would've done a better job as Operations - why is that so? Now that we know all about Oversight and Centre, wasn't what Paul and Madeline did for their own survival, just like the way Michael and Nikita fought to survive in Section? And what is the guarantee that Michael and Nikita wouldn't do the exact same things when they got the power? Your thoughts here. *g*

Nell, tell me why Nikita wouldn't fall in the same trap as Paul in order to survive.

Comments

Reply part II

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that Paul was insane at that point had more to do with Michael's ability to stage a mutiny than operatives loosing their lives for reasons beyond their understanding. After all, if that is all it took there would have been a mutiny before then as how many operatives actually knew what they were actually dying for?

I always read Paul's insanity as a ‘last straw’ sort of thing – that had operatives been more loyal to him in the first place, they would have backed him over Michael despite the madness.

I've always thought of Michael as a crutch kind of guy - needing something or someone to believe in and not too particular. When the issue of loyalty comes up in regards to Michael I am always reminded of Rene's speech in "Half Life" - "You (Michael) once said a man defines themselves by what they are willing to die for. I will die for a belief, and you will die because you have none."

Rene was a child-murdering shit who said the most hurtful thing he could think of, regardless of how true it was. Once he recognized he was going to die – he choose to die spitefully. I would check for myself if Rene Dion told me it was raining in the middle of a thunderstorm.

I doubt very many others had the access that Nikita did and so wouldn't have had the opportunity to even ask their questions.

Why? Because their brains fell out somewhere during training? All you have to do to ask a question is open your mouth and ask. Presumably they had access to their own trainers, and through them Michael and Madeline and Operations. And unless you are proposing that Paul and Madeline were treating Nikita as a special case from day one, I’ve always assumed that her access wasn’t especially unique – that Operations and Madeline were that involved with the training of all their operatives.

I happen to think that a number of operatives did feel that way - there is evidence that a great many were loyal to Section and its leaders.

I’m willing to believe that some were grateful for what they had, but I’d love to know who you have in mind as I can’t think of any off hand.

I do disagree and would argue that TPTB disagreed with you too. lol. By making Mr. Jones Nikita's insane daddy they made it all too clear that Madeline and Paul never stood a chance - it didn't matter what they did or how they did it, they would have been replaced anyhow.

But insane daddy (and boy do I agree with you on that) didn’t replace Paul – as you point out below – or permanently bar him from Center. He also didn’t mandate Madeline’s death. Paul, lost in his own depression ran out wily-nily on a live mission with almost no back up, and apparently, no Kevlar. Madeline chose to end her own life. Daddy had no direct control over either of those events. I have always assumed, in both cases, that Paul and Madeline gave up their lives because they each felt utterly bereft of support and rejected by those they expected to impress – and without any support or power base from below they felt unacceptably helpless in the face of their apparent reversal of fortune.

Personally, I think the Gellman process is the greatest failing of TPTB. They wrote themselves into a corner in season three and I think they knew that.

But it still has to accounted for in canon characterization.

Instead of having Nikita evolve and make a place for herself in Section they had her stubbornly clinging to, what I view, as unrealistic ideals.

You said that in your fic too. What ‘unrealistic ideals’ do you think Nikita was still clinging too? I’ve always seen her arc as one of loss of ideals.

Re: Reply part II

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Cyanide:I've always thought of Michael as a crutch kind of guy - needing something or someone to believe in and not too particular. When the issue of loyalty comes up in regards to Michael I am always reminded of Rene's speech in "Half Life" - "You (Michael) once said a man defines themselves by what they are willing to die for. I will die for a belief, and you will die because you have none."

Nell: Rene was a child-murdering shit who said the most hurtful thing he could think of, regardless of how true it was. Once he recognized he was going to die – he choose to die spitefully. I would check for myself if Rene Dion told me it was raining in the middle of a thunderstorm.

This exchanged cracked me up. *g*

Cyanide has a good point here. I've always believed that Michael really and truly believes in Section's goals, therefore he toes Section's lines. Whether he believes in stopping the problem of 'terrorism' or just the terrorists is of course entirely another question. But for a man who had once wanted to overhaul the system and create a new society (in their own misguided way), Michael's submission to Section's faulty system seems rather tame. You'd think he'd actually think more about changing the system, much more than Nikita at least. And that leaves me a with whole new set of questions. Yes, I'm fickle. *g*

Swatkat

Hmmmm

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

And unless you are proposing that Paul and Madeline were treating Nikita as a special case from day one, I’ve always assumed that her access wasn’t especially unique – that Operations and Madeline were that involved with the training of all their operatives.

Actually, Nikita *was* treated as a special case from day one, and Madeline cited that fact in NOLF as a major piece of evidence in her attempt to persuade Nikita that Operations was her father.

But insane daddy (and boy do I agree with you on that) didn’t replace Paul – as you point out below – or permanently bar him from Center. He also didn’t mandate Madeline’s death. Paul, lost in his own depression ran out wily-nily on a live mission with almost no back up, and apparently, no Kevlar. Madeline chose to end her own life. Daddy had no direct control over either of those events. I have always assumed, in both cases, that Paul and Madeline gave up their lives because they each felt utterly bereft of support and rejected by those they expected to impress – and without any support or power base from below they felt unacceptably helpless in the face of their apparent reversal of fortune.

That's an assumption I definitely don't share -- but I'll spare us all another tangent. LOL.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Actually, Nikita *was* treated as a special case from day one, and Madeline cited that fact in NOLF as a major piece of evidence in her attempt to persuade Nikita that Operations was her father.

Madeline was lying to her in NOLF.

And Nikita was used as a lab rat (the phasing shell) and then sentenced to abeyence in her first year. What was 'special' about those things? Beyond the fact that they indicated that Madeline and Paul were perfectly happy to lose her services?

That's an assumption I definitely don't share -- but I'll spare us all another tangent. LOL.

I know. I have read, and at the time, found incredibly convincing your version of what was going on for Madeline - and, though I'm less clear on this one, for Paul as well. But your views haven't sunk in yet, or at least not enough to erase my original impressions...so that's what I'm going with for now. :)

A bit more

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Madeline was lying to her in NOLF.

About Paul being Nikita's father! But pointing out that Nikita had had unusual treatment and access to the higher-ups was what she used to make the lie potentially convincing -- it thus had to be an obvious truth.

And Nikita was used as a lab rat (the phasing shell) and then sentenced to abeyence in her first year. What was 'special' about those things? Beyond the fact that they indicated that Madeline and Paul were perfectly happy to lose her services?

The specialness was in the level of contact and exposure she had to the upper-level command.

ITA

[mscyanide.livejournal.com]

And on the issue of Paul and Maddy's posistion's post review also.

And away I go again...

[mscyanide.livejournal.com]

"I always read Paul's insanity as a ‘last straw’ sort of thing – that had operatives been more loyal to him in the first place, they would have backed him over Michael despite the madness."

Naturally, I didn't see it that way. I think the madness was the deciding factor and that people backed Michael not because they felt any sense of loyality to him but because they felt Ops was just mad enough to get them all killed. It was a matter of survival, simple as that.

"Rene was a child-murdering shit who said the most hurtful thing he could think of, regardless of how true it was. Once he recognized he was going to die – he choose to die spitefully. I would check for myself if Rene Dion told me it was raining in the middle of a thunderstorm."

Perhaps, but I felt his words described Michael's attitude rather well.

"I’m willing to believe that some were grateful for what they had, but I’d love to know who you have in mind as I can’t think of any off hand."

How about Mintz, Henry and Elizabeth? The majority of section operatives weren't Cold Ops, as far as I can tell.

C:"Personally, I think the Gellman process is the greatest failing of TPTB. They wrote themselves into a corner in season three and I think they knew that."

N:"But it still has to accounted for in canon characterization."

I point to Ms JayBee's story - that which explains everything. *g*

C:"Instead of having Nikita evolve and make a place for herself in Section they had her stubbornly clinging to, what I view, as unrealistic ideals."

N:"You said that in your fic too. What ‘unrealistic ideals’ do you think Nikita was still clinging too? I’ve always seen her arc as one of loss of ideals."

Few for the many? Section operatives should be allowed more freedom? There is life outside Section? *wink*

Finding it difficult to remember I'm not the N in this conversation, so if there's the odd N on my own quote's don't be surprised.

Ahh - 'those' ideals -

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Few for the many?

Just because Nikita holds a different view of an undecided ethical question than you do doesn't make her 'unrealistically idealistic.' It just means you don't agree.

Section operatives should be allowed more freedom?

When did she say that? The only thing I could find, where she gave an explicit statement about what she wanted to do to improve section, in S5 was this:

Nikita to O'Brien: "Such as doing away with some of the worst features in this place. The constant surveillance, the use of abeyance operatives, that sort of thing."

Easing up on the constant surveillance I can get behind - it was invasive (and undoubtely expensive) and didn't seem to do a whole hell of a lotta good anyway.

Eliminating abeyance operatives? I think she was wrong about that - and would discover quickly as she gained more authority that you have to have some way to make sure expected losses are least damaging to your resources. But she must have had some kind of theory about how the Sections would operate without it, and I'd love to hear it....and even though I suspect it wouldn't work, you never know until you try.

There is life outside Section?

For who? For herself? She said several times from S2 on that she *didn't* think there was any life outside Section for her, and ultimately accepted her own life tenure in Section as a given.

I know this thread was about Madeline and Paul - but I've been curious about what exactly you meant for a while. Thanks for taking the time to answer me - I suspected I wouldn't see whatever it was in the same way as you do, of course, but it's good to know the specifics. *g*