Paul and Madeline
Mar. 14th, 2004 10:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
swatkatSince we were talking about harshness - are we, the Michael/Nikita fans, too harsh when it comes to Paul and Madeline? Even those of us who actually like and admire them (including myself)? We're always going on about their cruelty and how Michael or Nikita (Nikita for me *g*) would've done a better job as Operations - why is that so? Now that we know all about Oversight and Centre, wasn't what Paul and Madeline did for their own survival, just like the way Michael and Nikita fought to survive in Section? And what is the guarantee that Michael and Nikita wouldn't do the exact same things when they got the power? Your thoughts here. *g*
Nell, tell me why Nikita wouldn't fall in the same trap as Paul in order to survive.
Nell, tell me why Nikita wouldn't fall in the same trap as Paul in order to survive.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
You're a darling...
Date: 2004-03-17 11:40 pm (UTC)Just to sum up - everyone's judgement of a character and a situation is based upon their perspective and is biased. I'm harsh on Nikita, Michael and Mr. Jones and you Nell are equally harsh on Madeline and Paul.
We each attempt to make the faults of our favorites less glaring and demonize others in order to do it. We will never actually agree which is just fabulous, because disagreeing is just sooooo much fun. *bg*
I swear I really don't *need* the last word as much as it looks like I do...
Date: 2004-03-18 03:36 am (UTC)Of course - but that doesn't mean that different judgements are equally well supported or articulated.
Sorry - just as a teacher I get this whine all the time:
Student who failed test: "But it's my opinion!!!"
Me: "Your opinion was based on your notion there were still slaves in the American South *after* the Civil War. There were not. You still get no credit for the answer."
In this case I'm in much to deep to try to decide who did a 'better' job with that - if anyone, this time around. *g*
I'm harsh on Nikita, Michael and Mr. Jones and you Nell are equally harsh on Madeline and Paul.
Actually I don't think I'm anywhere near as harsh on Madeline and Paul as you are about Nikita and Michael. You've repeatedly made it clear that you think Nikita does little more than take up more than her fair share of oxygen and that Michael is a dolt.
I admire Madeline - I think she was extremely smart and talented, intensely focused, and hugely professional about her work, and ultimately very, very badly used by Paul and Center, both. While she could be cruel and cold, she could also be warm and kind. She also seemed very tired, and sometimes very lonely - and I wished better for her than she got, from the other characters and especially from the writers.
I'm more ambivilent about Paul - I respect his courage and his committment and his ambition to make the world a safer place. I like his coniving mind and his alligator grin. But he acted like a jerk too often for me to warm to him very much.
We each attempt to make the faults of our favorites less glaring and demonize others in order to do it.
I don't think I've ever denied Nikita or Michael's faults, or tried to demonize Madeline and Paul.
My major criticism of Madeline and Paul was that I thought they mishandled the interpersonal dynamics of Section, which damaged the very outcomes they otherwise sought with all the talent and passion at their command. That they were generally quite successful, and for what we were led to believe was quite a long time, made it that much harder for me to watch them foster an environment which positively encouraged their operatives to betray them, and on a regular basis.
This thread began by Swatkat asking if HRs - like me - were 'too harsh' on Madeline and Paul. For my part, I answered no. I don't think I demonize them, or turn them into raving lunatics, or dismiss them as stupid or incompetent, or attempt to belittle them in order to build up Nikita or Michael.
We will never actually agree which is just fabulous, because disagreeing is just sooooo much fun. *bg*
That is undoubtedly true - how very, very boring if we did!
I really don't *need* the last word either. *wink*
Date: 2004-03-18 09:02 pm (UTC)LOL, you do have a point. I am perhaps harsher on Nikita and Michael than you are on Paul and Madeline, or at least, harsher on Nikita than you are on Paul or Madeline.
However, I happen to be of the opinion that you are too harsh on Paul and Madeline - Paul in particular. You do, to a certain degree, demonize them and have demonstrated this tendency throughout this discussion.
You have been quick to condemn them for policies which it is entirely possible they were not responsible for implementing and had to enforce. Now, while JayBee and myself have displayed a tendency to 'pass the buck' to Mr. Jones or George you have been reluctant to acknowledge that anyone but Madeline or Paul could have been responsible. Perhaps you don't dislike them, but you are harsh on them. *bg*
Heh. I may as well put in my *first* word here, lol!
Date: 2004-03-18 09:57 pm (UTC)Jaybee, as elequent as always. I'd pay you to defend me any day.
Cyanide, what can I say? I completely and utterly disagree with almost everything you've said. (And yet I still like you. Go figure.) If you think Nell is too harsh on Paul and Madeline, then God knows what you think about the people who *are* actually too harsh on Paul and Madeline. *lol*
Swati, I think you get the gold star for the number of comments this thread, lol!
lol, hey Ms Genevieve.
Date: 2004-03-18 10:19 pm (UTC)There's no accounting for taste. *wink*
"If you think Nell is too harsh on Paul and Madeline, then God knows what you think about the people who *are* actually too harsh on Paul and Madeline. *lol*"
But you already know what I think of *those* people Jen. They are idiots. *eg*
Heh
Date: 2004-03-20 04:59 pm (UTC)Don't you just love it when they go off like that? *vbeg* Too bad I couldn't participate that much because it all happened while I was sleeping, lol!
Swatkat
Okay then. Demonic Paul it is.
Date: 2004-03-20 12:12 am (UTC)Nell
(huggles her little horned Paul snugly to her chest and wanders away....)
no subject
Date: 2004-03-20 05:02 pm (UTC)That so needs an icon. *veg*
Swatkat
Oh yes!
Date: 2004-03-21 02:43 am (UTC)Heh heh heh
Date: 2004-03-21 04:13 am (UTC)I'll keep that in mind.*vbeg*
Any specific Paul picture (grinning, yelling, glaring, etc) you have in mind?
Swatkat
LOL, not really
Date: 2004-03-21 07:02 pm (UTC)Anything will work. Glaring would be lovely, but I'm not picky. *g*
Hmm
Date: 2004-03-22 01:01 pm (UTC)In case glaring isn't available (Shame on you TRs! How come there's not a single good quality screencap of Paul?), will an evil grin do? And what should the icon say? Should I leave it blank? Or do I ask
Swatkat
So many questions!
Date: 2004-03-22 04:24 pm (UTC)We TRs *are* a bit lazy about screencaps -- I guess we aren't as obsessed as our HR cohorts? *vbg* But I trust you to find something appropriate.
As for what the icon should say...I don't know! Ask Gen and surprise me.....LOL.
Well
Date: 2004-03-22 04:39 pm (UTC)We TRs *are* a bit lazy about screencaps -- I guess we aren't as obsessed as our HR cohorts? *vbg*
Shame on you! ;) Well, there's always geneglazer.com - too bad about the qualities. *sigh*
Swatkat
Oh, no
Date: 2004-03-22 07:03 pm (UTC)Don't fret, pet.
Date: 2004-03-23 12:50 am (UTC)I also have lots of Evil Icon Quotes in my head. Heh.
Aha!
Date: 2004-03-23 02:36 am (UTC)I did one screencap myself (one of Paul, and one of Michael and Nikita in HL) - and the qualities are equally bad.
Swatkat
As you wish...
Date: 2004-03-23 02:32 am (UTC)