Sleepy and incoherent

[swatkat]

Today's metafandom is full of discussions on March- whether or not it is fanfic, and why; whether it is somehow 'better' than what we understand as fanfic; what makes it 'better', if we assume it to be so, etc etc. My first instinct, of course, is to call March fanfic. And while I shouldn't comment on something I haven't actually read, I don't think it's even particularly interesting fanfic. Because in re-telling Mr. March's story, Brooke is telling us the story of an ordinary, sensitive man in times of war (who also happens to be Mr. March, the father of Jo March) – and how many times have we heard that story again? Little Women OTOH is about those left behind, about the *women* left behind, and that, to me, is a more interesting story than the same old Man vs. War story.

This is not to say I'm *against* re-telling stories. No, of course not. Would I be in fandom if I were? It's just that unless Brooke has managed to give us some new and interesting perspective on the old Man vs. War story, or on the Little Women universe (which I love dearly. someday I shall write a post on how this book changed my life. no, really – it did.) in her fic, I don't really care much about it.

*

And because I'm slightly (*cough*) obsessed with Wicked these days, I naturally started thinking whether you could call Wicked fanfiction. And I was quite astonished by my own answer to the question – I actually hesitated to call it fanfic, though it very clearly is a derivative work (a brilliant AU, if you like). Or 'just' fanfic. Which has a horribly derogatory ring to it, and that is so not what I meant to say. I think what I wanted to say is that fanfic – or to be more specific, shipfic, with its hyperfocus on romance and sex - often does not consider any other issue than romance (not that there's anything wrong with it), which maybe alright for the *fans* of that particular universe, but probably not so for everyone else. Does that at all make sense? *is hopelessly muddled*

P.S - GIP. Okay, so this is not a scene from the book. But Glinda sobbing over Elphaba's hat? There is no bad there. *sigh*

Comments

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

Yes.

Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original?

I wasn't thinking of these as fanfic, no. Although I suppose they're also derivative works so maybe we *should* include them in the discussion.

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic. Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending). In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

[(Anonymous)]

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic.

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts. And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending).

Well, I suppose that depends on how you want to cast the story. I was reading some blog or other the other day, where the writer was positing that Jane Austen and Charloette Bronte were *really* just writing extended H/C romance fic. I think of Pride and Prejudice in many ways - but h/c romance isn't actually one of them! (It works slightly better for Jane Eyre, but not really. Rochester is permanently humbled and Jane grows - permanently - in power, which makes them equal - which doesn't really seem quite the same to me as a torture/healing sex scenario in the classic fanfic h/c formula anyway.....)

In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

Hmm. I haven't read a lot of it, but given the soap-operaish summaries of the contortions of the Star Wars EU universe - it *sounds* like a lot of that is really plot for the sake of smexing up the various characters.

The one ST franchise novel I've read, while not a romance per se, is, mostly, plot for the sake of exploring Jim Kirk's dad and his relationships with his officers and his sons. It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships - it is even one of the 'in the nick of time' rescues that ends up 'off the record' due to various 'top sekrit stuff' so that it doesn't warp canon.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts.

That might explain why it's better-written than most fanfic, but I'm not sure how it would explain the difference in the tendency to focus on romance.

And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Actually, very little. Moreover, the only real "romance" the main character has is (1) extremely brief and (2) arguably just a plot device to set up something else that the author felt was more important.

As for Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre as h/c romance...I'll have to defer to you on that one. I started Pride and Prejudice in high school and wasn't able to sustain enough interest in it to finish, and I've never attempted Jane Eyre. However, I never got the impression that h/c in fanfic was inconsistent with the characters being equals.

But the pro fanfic examples I had in mind were, in addition to Wicked, things like the innumerable Sherlock Holmes stories that have been written over the years, all the different King Arthur/Grail books, horror fiction that plays in H.P. Lovecraft's universe, Tarzan, Dracula, etc. While some of these certainly include a romance as part of the plot (such as the Arthur/Guenevere(sp?)/Lancelot triangle), romance doesn't seem to be the the primary focus. It's an element of something larger, not the ultimate point.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

However, I never got the impression that h/c in fanfic was inconsistent with the characters being equals.

Heh - no, I don't either! I just meant that, at least in the case of Jane Eyre - the 'comfort' part isn't really an equivilent to the 'magickal healing sex' that I tend to think of in the h/c realm - in that Rochester isn't actually 'healed.' He stays blind, and comparatively, helpless and scared, and dependent on Jane's sufferance. It is a kind of h/c I suppose - but, my point was, you can re-genre all sorts of things depending on what point you're looking to make.

But the pro fanfic examples I had in mind were, in addition to Wicked, things like the innumerable Sherlock Holmes stories that have been written over the years, all the different King Arthur/Grail books, horror fiction that plays in H.P. Lovecraft's universe, Tarzan, Dracula, etc. While some of these certainly include a romance as part of the plot (such as the Arthur/Guenevere(sp?)/Lancelot triangle), romance doesn't seem to be the the primary focus. It's an element of something larger, not the ultimate point.

Well, I suppose in part it depends on how narrowly we're construing the genre lable 'romance.' For example, most Jane Austen doesnt' actually fit the current publishing house description of romance - though finding a husband is the essential plot of all her books.

There is one way to read LOTR where the entire saga is nothing more than striaght up romance, where Aragon overcomes obstacles to win Arwen and live happily ever after for the rest of his life. It certainly isn't the only way, or probably even one of the dominent ways to read that text - but I've seen it used as a way to dismiss the story by those who don't like it.

So this creates a bit a naming problem when talking about fanfic/derivative fic as well - what do you mean by 'romance'? and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

I'm not a horror fan, so I've never read Lovecraft, much less anything remotely fanficcish for it! As for the rest - well, some of the King Arthur/Grail books I've read *are* what *I* would call romance - and not always the classic triangle either, there is one entire series devoted to Merlin's POV in which Merlin's decision to become sexually active and fall in love is the root cause of hte loss of Camelot, much like MZB's Mists of Avalon, only in her story it's Mordred's mother's sexual/romantic decisions that drive the fall - and, some aren't, same with Dracula.

With the Sherlock Holmes fanfic - as it happens, the only SH I've read not written by Doyle is the fanfic with the OFC who marries Holmes himself! I'm really not sure what the 'rest' of the SH world of "pro" fic is like - though I gather a lot of the actual online stuff isn't published b/c its all m/m romance featuring Holmes and Watson!

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I just meant that, at least in the case of Jane Eyre - the 'comfort' part isn't really an equivilent to the 'magickal healing sex' that I tend to think of in the h/c realm - in that Rochester isn't actually 'healed.'

Ah, OK. Since I've never read this and can't discuss it even remotely intelligently, I can't really add anything more here.

Well, I suppose in part it depends on how narrowly we're construing the genre lable 'romance.'

True. I think my definition is broader than the publishing house category definition, though. I'd define romance as anything where a romantic relationship is the primary focus of the work.

There is one way to read LOTR where the entire saga is nothing more than striaght up romance, where Aragon overcomes obstacles to win Arwen and live happily ever after for the rest of his life. It certainly isn't the only way, or probably even one of the dominent ways to read that text - but I've seen it used as a way to dismiss the story by those who don't like it.

Really? I haven't read LOTR since junior high, but I didn't even remember Arwen being *in* the books. I guess that's how much of an impression she made on me! LOL.

and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

Well, yeah. Perhaps it's one of those, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it!" sorts of things. ;-)

I haven't read much of the romance-type versions of King Arthur or Dracula, so it's interesting that you've come across those. (It wouldn't surprise me if I have a sort of self-selecting ability to avoid them and choose the versions that don't have romance as the main focus -- probably clues on the dust jacket keep me away!) As for Sherlock Homes, my father has quite a few books in that "fandom," and the vast majority seem to simply be additional adventures/mysteries for Holmes to solve. I found the Holmes/OFC books in my father's collection, too, and made the mistake of reading one -- I wanted to exclaim, "OMG, this is the biggest Mary Sue EVER!" except that Dad wouldn't have had the faintest idea what a Mary Sue was.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Really? I haven't read LOTR since junior high, but I didn't even remember Arwen being *in* the books. I guess that's how much of an impression she made on me! LOL.

She isn't. Much. A couple of times in FOTR, and then Aragorn marries her in ROTK. Their love story is in the appendix - which I'm very fond of, by the way. *g*

[nell65.livejournal.com]

No, she isn't around much in the text - and the obstacles to their relationship aren't their personalities, but rather external problems. You know, the ruling ring, the embodiement of evil, the passing of Middle earth - stuff like that!

But - as a motivation for Aragorn - she's omnipresent, especially after you've read the appendices and then forever after as you re-read the story itself. Really, from at least one perfectly legitimate POV - how much more 'romantic' and 'romance' filled can you get?

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I think my definition is broader too - but I'm not at all sure where the lines are, and so much depends on context.

Take again the Merlin series I was talking about - Merlin has no affairs until the third book, but his affair when he does have it destroys Camelot (and him too, of course). So, the romance is absolutely central to the longer story arc, not a tangent, not a sub plot - but *the* plot. The ultimate reason for everything.

Is it a romance? Or not?

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, OK, with the caveat that I haven't read this series, I'd say no, it's not a romance in my opinion of the term. While a romantic relationship may be a central plot element, the success or failure of the romance isn't *the* main point of the books. Rather, the romantic relationship causes something else important to happen. Thus, the romance serves the plot, not the other way around.

In a romance, the plot is important *only* because it adds tension/obstacles to (or, alternatively, advances the development of) the romantic relationship. That doesn't seem to be the case in what you're describing.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

So this creates a bit a naming problem when talking about fanfic/derivative fic as well - what do you mean by 'romance'? and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

Heh. I'm not sure we can define it that way. But yes, like jaybee65, I know it when I see it. You've been reading Pratchett, right? Pterry's a *master* at 'something else with romance on the side'. Think Carrot/Angua in Men at Arms, for instance (and then in the later books he even uses the ship to comment on some Issues). Or Susan/Lobsang is Thief of Time (*happy sigh*). Or Adora/Moist in Going Postal. Or Teppic/Ptraci in Pyramids. And so on.

And you know what? I don't actually mind it when fanfic focuses on 'just romance'. But it annoys me *immensely* in profic for reasons I'm not sure of. *scratches head*

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure what we're trying to talk about -- 'romance in fanfic' or 'ship fic' -- really has a good label, or for that matter with pro-fic either.

Why is Bridges of Madison County, or Cold Mountain a novel, but Heyer's Friday's Child is a romance? Because men wrote the first two and a woman wrote the third?

I do know what *you* mean, I think, though - and agree that Prachett, frex, for the most part, adds romantic sub/side plots, but generally speaking, his stories aren't romances, he's commenting on other things. I'm also not a big fan of "pro fic" romance stories - especially not those that have snuck out of the 'romance' section and into the main "lit" section.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh please. Bridges of Madison Country (which I only vaguely remember) is so a romance. It's even sold in the romance category here - is it different out there?

I do know what *you* mean, I think, though - and agree that Prachett, frex, for the most part, adds romantic sub/side plots, but generally speaking, his stories aren't romances, he's commenting on other things.

And that's what I love about him. He's got this perfect ability to blend everything together.

especially not those that have snuck out of the 'romance' section and into the main "lit" section.

I call them Pretentious Romances. *g*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Moreover, the only real "romance" the main character has is (1) extremely brief and (2) arguably just a plot device to set up something else that the author felt was more important.


My ship is text!!!!1!

...

You know, I may be getting slightly rabid about this.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Oh there's sex alright - a lot, by some people's standards (not mine. I think there's very little sex, actually), but there's a difference. I can't really explain - you'll have to read it and see for yourself. *eg* The book is *not* about the pr0n, no matter what idiot reviewers at amazon say.

It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships

A lot of genfic does that too.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Yep - so, what is the difference, exactly? And why does it seem to matter so much sometimes?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

The difference, I think, is the hyperfocus on romance and sex, which seems to forget that people have more in their lives than just that. I don't actually mind it in fanfic, but sometimes it can make a difference.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

OH - damn, left out too many words.

I meant - what is the difference between gen that primarily exists to explore non-sexual relationships, and some other kind of fic altogether that exists for adventure or mystery or some other plot, and isn't really about relationships at all? I thought that was the comparison Jaybee and you were drawing between shipfic by fans and pro fanfic by pros.

As for the heavy emphasis on sex and sexual relationships in fanfic - I've been see-sawing on that lately.

One of the things I really hated at first about certain kinds of non-canon shipping, mostly slash but some others as well, was the way the authors insisted on re-framing relationships that did not seem to me to be sexual at all as inheritantly sexual; taken together all these fic do seem to suggest a world in which everyone only relates in a meaningful way to everyone else via their genitals. This is manifestly not so.... and so, what was up with all that fic?

But this is a classic anti-slash position that has been crushed, and rightly so most of the time, by slashers - over and over again - on the grounds that it is hopelessy heterocentric and homophobic.

What I think both positions overlook is the difference between all the indivudal writers - many of whom are hoplessly OTP in whatever fandom they're producing for, and so aren't smashing *everything* but only adding one thing to the original - and hte culumative effect of the mass - which *is* to smash everything in the original - not literally of course, the original text is just fine and can be viewed in its original form at any time - but from a perspective looking at the forest of fanfic, can and does I think lead to the question of "why do they do that if they really do love the original? There is nothing of that left out there!" "Its nothing but sex fic!"

Um. Yes - and no.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I meant - what is the difference between gen that primarily exists to explore non-sexual relationships, and some other kind of fic altogether that exists for adventure or mystery or some other plot, and isn't really about relationships at all? I thought that was the comparison Jaybee and you were drawing between shipfic by fans and pro fanfic by pros.

No, no, the distinction I'm drawing is between (1) fic that focuses on romantic/sexual relationships and (2) *any* other kind of fic. By "shipfic" I don't mean fic about *any* kind of relationship, but only about romantic/sexual relationships.

And my criticism wouldn't be aimed only at slash, or only at fen who deal in non-canon or subtextual relationships, but at *all* fen. My rhetorical question to them isn't "why are you adding something that wasn't in the original?" but rather, "why is it that the *only* thing anyone seems to be interested in adding deals with sex/romance?" I don't even object to shipfic, per se, as I think it's a perfectly legitimate genre -- I just wonder why it's *SO* overwhemingly predominant!

It's like the worst stereotype of the female reading audience come to life: that women only care about relaaaaaaationships. And it kind of makes me sad, because I've always argued that the stereotype isn't true.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Uh. I've a lot to say in reply - I'll be back in the morning when I'm thinking straight. Keep it up, you two! *g*

Part I

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Okay. First, I know I've said this already, but I should say it again – I'm a fan of shipfic. I don't identify as a shipper (I'm more of an OTC person), but yes, I read a lot of shipfic, I hope to finish some shipfic some day, and on most days, I'm perfectly happy with the way things are in fandom. When I say shipfic, I mean a fic whose *primary* purpose is to explore a certain sexual/romantic relationship. *All* shipfic – m/m, m/f, f/f, more – doesn’t matter. I know – this could depend on reader perception (you and Jaybee have been talking about it in another thread), but I think in most cases it's pretty clear whether a fic is shipfic or not. For the moment, I'll also leave out genfic that deals with relationship issues that are non-romantic/sexual in nature out of the discussion, because that complicates things a little bit.

You said: and some other kind of fic altogether that exists for adventure or mystery or some other plot - I should clarify more here, because I've been mostly vague on this. The best example I could use here is Jane Eyre/Wide Sargasso Sea. Of all the books we've talked about so far, Jane Eyre is closest to a romance – the reunion is definitely a part of the payoff (though the real payoff is that *she* marries *him*). WSS is the pro-fanfic. It takes canon and explores the Bertha/Rochester relationship. It also explores *other* issues – about Bertha, about the treatment of Bertha and what it means - in a way that tells you new things about the source text, things you didn't think existed in the text. Amateur fanfic mostly bypasses the social/cultural/political/religious issues and considers *only* the romantic/sexual relationship – if there was a JE fandom, I'm sure it would be full of Jane/Rochester, Bertha/Rochester, Jane/Bertha and so on. There would be darkfic where the darker, baser sides of the characters are explored; there would h/c and BDSM and non-con – but how many authors would explore the issue of, say, the treatment of religion in Jane Eyre? How many fanfic authors would consider tying in the questions regarding the source of Rochester's income in their Rochester/Jane fic – the way Gregory Maguire does in Wicked? If you recall one of our discussions some time ago, where we discussed whether such social-political/religious/metaphysical commentary is within the scope of fanfic – it was discussion on why LFN fanfic mostly stays away from the murky RL issues that are present in canon. We said that it couldn't be done because it meant taking stands* which poses problems that have nothing to do with the story itself. And it's also because most people couldn't care less, because what they're really interested in is Michael/Nikita living happily ever after (with twins). Why is the AU genre so popular in the LFN fandom? Sure, there are people like you and Gen who like to see the characters in another setting, and take up the pains to do worldbuliding and stuff – but most LFN AU fiction is about getting Michael and Nikita together, without having to explain why or deal with the problems that canon poses.

This hyperfocus on the sexual/romantic relationship in fanfic is not necessarily a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned. But it *can* make (ship)fanfic seem – and I'm stepping into really controversial territory here – a little… light-weight compared to something like WSS or Wicked. (I hasten to add- it's not a bad thing. If we're here to escape RL and have fun, then we have every right to ignore those issues that make us think in RL. But then, we also don't have the right to whine when March gets published and our fic doesn't)


*Of course, because we don't take stands, often many unwitting stands get taken, and that's not really desirable either.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

I would so read that. *facepalm*

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Just don't include Toto. Please!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh, no vile little doggies in my hot f/f/f threesome! No way!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

that was me, forgetting to sign iin....

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

OK! I've replied to you above, although you won't get the notification since you weren't signed in.