Sleepy and incoherent

[swatkat]

Today's metafandom is full of discussions on March- whether or not it is fanfic, and why; whether it is somehow 'better' than what we understand as fanfic; what makes it 'better', if we assume it to be so, etc etc. My first instinct, of course, is to call March fanfic. And while I shouldn't comment on something I haven't actually read, I don't think it's even particularly interesting fanfic. Because in re-telling Mr. March's story, Brooke is telling us the story of an ordinary, sensitive man in times of war (who also happens to be Mr. March, the father of Jo March) – and how many times have we heard that story again? Little Women OTOH is about those left behind, about the *women* left behind, and that, to me, is a more interesting story than the same old Man vs. War story.

This is not to say I'm *against* re-telling stories. No, of course not. Would I be in fandom if I were? It's just that unless Brooke has managed to give us some new and interesting perspective on the old Man vs. War story, or on the Little Women universe (which I love dearly. someday I shall write a post on how this book changed my life. no, really – it did.) in her fic, I don't really care much about it.

*

And because I'm slightly (*cough*) obsessed with Wicked these days, I naturally started thinking whether you could call Wicked fanfiction. And I was quite astonished by my own answer to the question – I actually hesitated to call it fanfic, though it very clearly is a derivative work (a brilliant AU, if you like). Or 'just' fanfic. Which has a horribly derogatory ring to it, and that is so not what I meant to say. I think what I wanted to say is that fanfic – or to be more specific, shipfic, with its hyperfocus on romance and sex - often does not consider any other issue than romance (not that there's anything wrong with it), which maybe alright for the *fans* of that particular universe, but probably not so for everyone else. Does that at all make sense? *is hopelessly muddled*

P.S - GIP. Okay, so this is not a scene from the book. But Glinda sobbing over Elphaba's hat? There is no bad there. *sigh*

Comments

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic? Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original? Most filmed versions of Last of the Mohicans, fer instance?

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story - rather like the 'pro' fanfic. And I'm quite wary of many film adaptations of novels because of the weird ways they handle the romance, especially if the story originally had a female lead w/out a romance, or a romance that was problematic in some way.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

Yes.

Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original?

I wasn't thinking of these as fanfic, no. Although I suppose they're also derivative works so maybe we *should* include them in the discussion.

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic. Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending). In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

[(Anonymous)]

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic.

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts. And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending).

Well, I suppose that depends on how you want to cast the story. I was reading some blog or other the other day, where the writer was positing that Jane Austen and Charloette Bronte were *really* just writing extended H/C romance fic. I think of Pride and Prejudice in many ways - but h/c romance isn't actually one of them! (It works slightly better for Jane Eyre, but not really. Rochester is permanently humbled and Jane grows - permanently - in power, which makes them equal - which doesn't really seem quite the same to me as a torture/healing sex scenario in the classic fanfic h/c formula anyway.....)

In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

Hmm. I haven't read a lot of it, but given the soap-operaish summaries of the contortions of the Star Wars EU universe - it *sounds* like a lot of that is really plot for the sake of smexing up the various characters.

The one ST franchise novel I've read, while not a romance per se, is, mostly, plot for the sake of exploring Jim Kirk's dad and his relationships with his officers and his sons. It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships - it is even one of the 'in the nick of time' rescues that ends up 'off the record' due to various 'top sekrit stuff' so that it doesn't warp canon.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts.

That might explain why it's better-written than most fanfic, but I'm not sure how it would explain the difference in the tendency to focus on romance.

And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Actually, very little. Moreover, the only real "romance" the main character has is (1) extremely brief and (2) arguably just a plot device to set up something else that the author felt was more important.

As for Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre as h/c romance...I'll have to defer to you on that one. I started Pride and Prejudice in high school and wasn't able to sustain enough interest in it to finish, and I've never attempted Jane Eyre. However, I never got the impression that h/c in fanfic was inconsistent with the characters being equals.

But the pro fanfic examples I had in mind were, in addition to Wicked, things like the innumerable Sherlock Holmes stories that have been written over the years, all the different King Arthur/Grail books, horror fiction that plays in H.P. Lovecraft's universe, Tarzan, Dracula, etc. While some of these certainly include a romance as part of the plot (such as the Arthur/Guenevere(sp?)/Lancelot triangle), romance doesn't seem to be the the primary focus. It's an element of something larger, not the ultimate point.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

However, I never got the impression that h/c in fanfic was inconsistent with the characters being equals.

Heh - no, I don't either! I just meant that, at least in the case of Jane Eyre - the 'comfort' part isn't really an equivilent to the 'magickal healing sex' that I tend to think of in the h/c realm - in that Rochester isn't actually 'healed.' He stays blind, and comparatively, helpless and scared, and dependent on Jane's sufferance. It is a kind of h/c I suppose - but, my point was, you can re-genre all sorts of things depending on what point you're looking to make.

But the pro fanfic examples I had in mind were, in addition to Wicked, things like the innumerable Sherlock Holmes stories that have been written over the years, all the different King Arthur/Grail books, horror fiction that plays in H.P. Lovecraft's universe, Tarzan, Dracula, etc. While some of these certainly include a romance as part of the plot (such as the Arthur/Guenevere(sp?)/Lancelot triangle), romance doesn't seem to be the the primary focus. It's an element of something larger, not the ultimate point.

Well, I suppose in part it depends on how narrowly we're construing the genre lable 'romance.' For example, most Jane Austen doesnt' actually fit the current publishing house description of romance - though finding a husband is the essential plot of all her books.

There is one way to read LOTR where the entire saga is nothing more than striaght up romance, where Aragon overcomes obstacles to win Arwen and live happily ever after for the rest of his life. It certainly isn't the only way, or probably even one of the dominent ways to read that text - but I've seen it used as a way to dismiss the story by those who don't like it.

So this creates a bit a naming problem when talking about fanfic/derivative fic as well - what do you mean by 'romance'? and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

I'm not a horror fan, so I've never read Lovecraft, much less anything remotely fanficcish for it! As for the rest - well, some of the King Arthur/Grail books I've read *are* what *I* would call romance - and not always the classic triangle either, there is one entire series devoted to Merlin's POV in which Merlin's decision to become sexually active and fall in love is the root cause of hte loss of Camelot, much like MZB's Mists of Avalon, only in her story it's Mordred's mother's sexual/romantic decisions that drive the fall - and, some aren't, same with Dracula.

With the Sherlock Holmes fanfic - as it happens, the only SH I've read not written by Doyle is the fanfic with the OFC who marries Holmes himself! I'm really not sure what the 'rest' of the SH world of "pro" fic is like - though I gather a lot of the actual online stuff isn't published b/c its all m/m romance featuring Holmes and Watson!

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I just meant that, at least in the case of Jane Eyre - the 'comfort' part isn't really an equivilent to the 'magickal healing sex' that I tend to think of in the h/c realm - in that Rochester isn't actually 'healed.'

Ah, OK. Since I've never read this and can't discuss it even remotely intelligently, I can't really add anything more here.

Well, I suppose in part it depends on how narrowly we're construing the genre lable 'romance.'

True. I think my definition is broader than the publishing house category definition, though. I'd define romance as anything where a romantic relationship is the primary focus of the work.

There is one way to read LOTR where the entire saga is nothing more than striaght up romance, where Aragon overcomes obstacles to win Arwen and live happily ever after for the rest of his life. It certainly isn't the only way, or probably even one of the dominent ways to read that text - but I've seen it used as a way to dismiss the story by those who don't like it.

Really? I haven't read LOTR since junior high, but I didn't even remember Arwen being *in* the books. I guess that's how much of an impression she made on me! LOL.

and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

Well, yeah. Perhaps it's one of those, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it!" sorts of things. ;-)

I haven't read much of the romance-type versions of King Arthur or Dracula, so it's interesting that you've come across those. (It wouldn't surprise me if I have a sort of self-selecting ability to avoid them and choose the versions that don't have romance as the main focus -- probably clues on the dust jacket keep me away!) As for Sherlock Homes, my father has quite a few books in that "fandom," and the vast majority seem to simply be additional adventures/mysteries for Holmes to solve. I found the Holmes/OFC books in my father's collection, too, and made the mistake of reading one -- I wanted to exclaim, "OMG, this is the biggest Mary Sue EVER!" except that Dad wouldn't have had the faintest idea what a Mary Sue was.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Really? I haven't read LOTR since junior high, but I didn't even remember Arwen being *in* the books. I guess that's how much of an impression she made on me! LOL.

She isn't. Much. A couple of times in FOTR, and then Aragorn marries her in ROTK. Their love story is in the appendix - which I'm very fond of, by the way. *g*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

So this creates a bit a naming problem when talking about fanfic/derivative fic as well - what do you mean by 'romance'? and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

Heh. I'm not sure we can define it that way. But yes, like jaybee65, I know it when I see it. You've been reading Pratchett, right? Pterry's a *master* at 'something else with romance on the side'. Think Carrot/Angua in Men at Arms, for instance (and then in the later books he even uses the ship to comment on some Issues). Or Susan/Lobsang is Thief of Time (*happy sigh*). Or Adora/Moist in Going Postal. Or Teppic/Ptraci in Pyramids. And so on.

And you know what? I don't actually mind it when fanfic focuses on 'just romance'. But it annoys me *immensely* in profic for reasons I'm not sure of. *scratches head*

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Moreover, the only real "romance" the main character has is (1) extremely brief and (2) arguably just a plot device to set up something else that the author felt was more important.


My ship is text!!!!1!

...

You know, I may be getting slightly rabid about this.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Oh there's sex alright - a lot, by some people's standards (not mine. I think there's very little sex, actually), but there's a difference. I can't really explain - you'll have to read it and see for yourself. *eg* The book is *not* about the pr0n, no matter what idiot reviewers at amazon say.

It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships

A lot of genfic does that too.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Yep - so, what is the difference, exactly? And why does it seem to matter so much sometimes?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

The difference, I think, is the hyperfocus on romance and sex, which seems to forget that people have more in their lives than just that. I don't actually mind it in fanfic, but sometimes it can make a difference.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

I would so read that. *facepalm*

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Just don't include Toto. Please!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh, no vile little doggies in my hot f/f/f threesome! No way!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

that was me, forgetting to sign iin....

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

OK! I've replied to you above, although you won't get the notification since you weren't signed in.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Most filmed versions of Last of the Mohicans, fer instance?

Bleagh. I've seen the Daniel Day-Lewis version, and I HATE IT!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Really? I LOVE the DDL version! *g* A good girl friend and I used to get together to watch it in grad school whenever we were feeling particularly down - and drink way too much red wine and sigh and giggle like mad things. But then, I have a weakness for sweeping romantic costume films with sexy leads and romantic scores.

It has nothing much to do with the original version, of course, other than setting and some character names - (which honestly, isn't the worst thing ever, Cooper was not our finest novelist.....).

Someday, of course, I'd love someone to film it with teh book romance at the heart of it, Cora and Uncas, but who knows when that will happen.

What don't you like about it?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

What don't you like about it?

The fact that it has nothing to do with the book. It was one of my favourite childhood adventure stories, and they turned it into a romance! And the story is about Cora and Uncus, not Hawkeye (wasn't that what he's called? haven't read it in a while)! Sorry - I'm slightly irrational about these things.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

No. Almost nothing at all to do with the book.

And the DDL character's name isn't even "Nathaniel."

Its "Natty Bumpo." Often called "Hawkeye" (which is how Hawkeye Pierce of M*A*S*H got his name, your interextuality of the day!) because of the accuracy of his rifle shooting.

And as far as I know - all of the film versions leave out the Jewish peddler/observor character whose name, as a result, I always forget. I'm reasonably sure that leaving him out works just fine in the translation to film! *g*

But if you loved the book, then yeah, the movie isn't going to satisfy - because it *really* isn't the book at all. I knew that going in, so expected more or less exactly what I got, a sweeping romance set during the fall of Forts William and Henry during the midst of the French and Indian War.

I actually show parts of it in various classes of mine - the opening sequence shooting the deer, b/c that's practically the *only* scene taken directly from the novel and captures a lot about what was going on in US culture at the time, especially with regard to changing notions of manhood and male identity; and oddly enough, in my military history class. Its the best visual explanation of the pre-modern trench technique of besieging a fort that I know of. ;-)

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

And why only novel-length fic? Short stories do the same thing.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Oh yes - but I was thinking that comparing the pornish PWP to something like Wicked was hardly fair. I don't think that is what we're doing, but I wanted to make sure. And to be honest, I haven't read that many short-story pro fanfics.......

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh yes - but I was thinking that comparing the pornish PWP to something like Wicked was hardly fair.

No, of course not. We could compare pornish PWP with mainstream erotica(which I don't read at all, so I really couldn't say. but yeah).

And to be honest, I haven't read that many short-story pro fanfics.......

Heh. True. I was comparing short fanfic to short origfic, and that's not what we're taking about here. Oops?

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I think you'd have to compare all short fanfic to all pro short stories. Does the fanfic contain a much higher proportion of sex/romance than the profic?

In the short story realm, I'm actually not sure what the answer would be. Given that there is apparently quite a lot of pro erotica out there, fanfic and profic might be more evenly matched when you're talking about short works.