Sleepy and incoherent

[swatkat]

Today's metafandom is full of discussions on March- whether or not it is fanfic, and why; whether it is somehow 'better' than what we understand as fanfic; what makes it 'better', if we assume it to be so, etc etc. My first instinct, of course, is to call March fanfic. And while I shouldn't comment on something I haven't actually read, I don't think it's even particularly interesting fanfic. Because in re-telling Mr. March's story, Brooke is telling us the story of an ordinary, sensitive man in times of war (who also happens to be Mr. March, the father of Jo March) – and how many times have we heard that story again? Little Women OTOH is about those left behind, about the *women* left behind, and that, to me, is a more interesting story than the same old Man vs. War story.

This is not to say I'm *against* re-telling stories. No, of course not. Would I be in fandom if I were? It's just that unless Brooke has managed to give us some new and interesting perspective on the old Man vs. War story, or on the Little Women universe (which I love dearly. someday I shall write a post on how this book changed my life. no, really – it did.) in her fic, I don't really care much about it.

*

And because I'm slightly (*cough*) obsessed with Wicked these days, I naturally started thinking whether you could call Wicked fanfiction. And I was quite astonished by my own answer to the question – I actually hesitated to call it fanfic, though it very clearly is a derivative work (a brilliant AU, if you like). Or 'just' fanfic. Which has a horribly derogatory ring to it, and that is so not what I meant to say. I think what I wanted to say is that fanfic – or to be more specific, shipfic, with its hyperfocus on romance and sex - often does not consider any other issue than romance (not that there's anything wrong with it), which maybe alright for the *fans* of that particular universe, but probably not so for everyone else. Does that at all make sense? *is hopelessly muddled*

P.S - GIP. Okay, so this is not a scene from the book. But Glinda sobbing over Elphaba's hat? There is no bad there. *sigh*

Comments

[sk56.livejournal.com]

Haven't read March yet, and haven't read Wicked either (I know, I know), but your distinction here between fanfiction and shipfiction interests me greatly. I will have to go think about it.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I'm not surely I'm entirely coherent up there - in fact, I'm not very coherent about this even in my head. It would be interesting to consider shipfic as a subgenre of fanfic, with specific traits of its own. Hmm.

(Pls to read Wicked. [/obligatory])

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I don't have any trouble thinking of Wicked as fanfic, but perhaps that's because I've always thought of shipfic as merely a subgenre of fanfic. Now, it happens to be a wildly popular subgenre so sometimes the two seem equivalent, but they're not.

I've always been somewhat annoyed -- and a little baffled -- by the predominance of sex/romance in fanfic. Why must everything always be about romantic relationships, as if the characters don't have anything else to do/think about? But I suppose it simply reflects the fact that romance is the highest-selling genre of pro fiction, as well -- another thing I don't get.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I think that it also has something to do with the way many of the media that draw the fen *aren't* romance oriented - and in fact, that's one of the most undeveloped aspects of the stories in canon - so opens the most space for ficcers.

I think the fen are truly drawn to the non-romance genres for fannish love, but want to add in the 'missing' romance. Even in LFN, the core fannish ships, M and N, and to a lesser extent Paul and Madeline, take place largely off screen - and so have lots of open space to be filled in.

If that makes any sense at all ....

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I think the fen are truly drawn to the non-romance genres for fannish love, but want to add in the 'missing' romance.

But...why? Why is romance seen as so important that its absence *must* be remedied? And if it is so important, why not stick to romance genres in the first place? It's like taking peach cobbler and saying, "You know, what's really missing here is *chocolate!*" and then drizzling it with chocolate syrup. If what you really wanted was a chocolate dessert, why didn't you just order one? Why pour chocolate over every single dessert in existence?

Mind you, I've read/written shippy stuff. But even with my so-called OTP, I'm really more interested in their professional partnership than their romantic one. What prompted me to take up writing fanfic was (1) sloppy plot continuity in the source material and (2) the canon defeat/destruction of my favorite characters, *not* any special drive to fill in missing love scenes per se.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Because I find all chocolate deserts entirely too sweet, but think a little rich, slightly bitter, slightly sweet chocolate sauce on top peach cobbler soundes wonderful? *g*

Seriously - I think its *because* canon has great plots than many feel would be improved for them personally, with just a little sauce, but most 'romance' genre fic has crappy, crappy plots and is 'all romance all the time.' Like - too much, too rich, two sweet 'death by chocolate' sorts of deserts - with no other flavor for contrast. Mostly I don't like these at all, though every now and then one tastes good.

Sloppy plot continuity/issues made me finallly put pen to paper as well, actually, but solving the LFN plot problems is a life's work, and mostly (to continue the food metphor), in the tedious pastry making part. A "lot" of labor goes into light, flaky pastry - you have to have it for a really steller desert, but honestly - most of the time I'm happy to use store bought pie-shells, or skip the shell altogether and just plop the fruit filling over ice cream. Way less labor to get to the tasty parts, and perfectly filling and usually quite satisfying too. I think a lot of fic writing is like that - the canon provides the basic pastry, everyone knows what it is and looks like and rushes on to the parts they want right now.

Romance genre fic can't do this at all, partially because its only filling in the first place and has no ready-made pastry to fill up. You'd be doing the opposite - making homemade pastry (or plot and action!) to hold store-branded canned cherry pie filling. Why bother?

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Seriously - I think its *because* canon has great plots than many feel would be improved for them personally, with just a little sauce

But what I see, in the vast majority of cases, isn't people adding "just a little sauce." They're pouring the entire bottle on it, drowning everything in the same flavor over and over again. Or worse, they're actually scooping out the original filling and replacing it with chocolate mousse!

I can understand wanting to spice up a dessert with something extra. But why must it *always* be chocolate? Certain desserts might taste much better if you added whipped cream, or cinnamon, or a scoop of fruit sorbet, or even just sliced fresh strawberries. What I don't understand about fandom is that no one even seems interested in trying these variations. It's chocolate, chocolate, chocolate, nothing but chocolate.

(Boy, am I getting hungry with this analogy. I could really go for some apple pie a la mode right now!)

[nell65.livejournal.com]

But what I see, in the vast majority of cases, isn't people adding "just a little sauce." They're pouring the entire bottle on it, drowning everything in the same flavor over and over again. Or worse, they're actually scooping out the original filling and replacing it with chocolate mousse!

Yes - I do know what you mean, but I sometimes think that's a bit of the 'echo chamber' effect of fanfiction, especially on the internet, where some themes get repeated endlessly, louder and louder - and it's not clear to me that without the echo chamber that would be such a strong trend.

There is also a lot of 'gen' (as in - no romance) stuff floating around, a smaller percentage perhaps - but rather like the once (presumably) invisible f/f, which now that it has communities and journals and an established support network isn't looking nearly so invisible anymore, I think gen may also be on its way back into the larger picture as well.

Labeling it all is hard though. I thought the recent Mary!Sunday Sue fic was gen, in the sense that the romance/sex wasn't really driving the plot - you could have stripped it all out and just left in the two OFC, one watching as the other brings down Section - and the story would have stood up just fine (perhaps better even!). You thought I should have labeled it ship/romance fic. Which brings us back full circle to reader POV. And there, I'm stuck...

[nell65.livejournal.com]

And oh, yeah - I have no trouble thinking of lots of things as 'fanfic' - including many, many, many published and filmed things. Like the "making light' folks, I think that the biggest challenge for the amature/gifting network of contemporary fanfic and the wider contermporary world around it, is that what makes it (to many) 'right' or 'wrong' is largely an artifact of copyright law, and has little or nothing to do with the creative impulse itself, or the results.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. However -- and I may be jumping off into something controversial here -- I feel that the "pro" fanfic (that is, the stuff that gets published because it deals with material for which the copyright has expired) also tends to be a *lot* less shippy than the amateur stuff, and that may be part of the reason why swatkat24 was having trouble seeing some of it as fanfic at all. Almost none of the pro fanfic I can think of simply adds in "missing romance". Rather the authors reinterpret the canon universe in a much more substantive way -- often, in a way that can be seen as a critique or reversal of the original's worldview. (There are exceptions, of course -- there's a very successful series of books that pairs off Sherlock Holmes with an OFC in what strikes me as a very typically "fanfic" kind of way.)

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic? Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original? Most filmed versions of Last of the Mohicans, fer instance?

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story - rather like the 'pro' fanfic. And I'm quite wary of many film adaptations of novels because of the weird ways they handle the romance, especially if the story originally had a female lead w/out a romance, or a romance that was problematic in some way.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

Yes.

Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original?

I wasn't thinking of these as fanfic, no. Although I suppose they're also derivative works so maybe we *should* include them in the discussion.

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic. Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending). In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

[(Anonymous)]

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic.

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts. And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending).

Well, I suppose that depends on how you want to cast the story. I was reading some blog or other the other day, where the writer was positing that Jane Austen and Charloette Bronte were *really* just writing extended H/C romance fic. I think of Pride and Prejudice in many ways - but h/c romance isn't actually one of them! (It works slightly better for Jane Eyre, but not really. Rochester is permanently humbled and Jane grows - permanently - in power, which makes them equal - which doesn't really seem quite the same to me as a torture/healing sex scenario in the classic fanfic h/c formula anyway.....)

In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

Hmm. I haven't read a lot of it, but given the soap-operaish summaries of the contortions of the Star Wars EU universe - it *sounds* like a lot of that is really plot for the sake of smexing up the various characters.

The one ST franchise novel I've read, while not a romance per se, is, mostly, plot for the sake of exploring Jim Kirk's dad and his relationships with his officers and his sons. It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships - it is even one of the 'in the nick of time' rescues that ends up 'off the record' due to various 'top sekrit stuff' so that it doesn't warp canon.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

that was me, forgetting to sign iin....

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Most filmed versions of Last of the Mohicans, fer instance?

Bleagh. I've seen the Daniel Day-Lewis version, and I HATE IT!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Really? I LOVE the DDL version! *g* A good girl friend and I used to get together to watch it in grad school whenever we were feeling particularly down - and drink way too much red wine and sigh and giggle like mad things. But then, I have a weakness for sweeping romantic costume films with sexy leads and romantic scores.

It has nothing much to do with the original version, of course, other than setting and some character names - (which honestly, isn't the worst thing ever, Cooper was not our finest novelist.....).

Someday, of course, I'd love someone to film it with teh book romance at the heart of it, Cora and Uncas, but who knows when that will happen.

What don't you like about it?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

And why only novel-length fic? Short stories do the same thing.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

However -- and I may be jumping off into something controversial here -- I feel that the "pro" fanfic (that is, the stuff that gets published because it deals with material for which the copyright has expired) also tends to be a *lot* less shippy than the amateur stuff, and that may be part of the reason why swatkat24 was having trouble seeing some of it as fanfic at all.

And here is the thing - I LIKE shipfic. Sometimes, it's all I read (though I do love genfic). But I do think that shipfic, with it's focus on romance only, misses out on a lot of other things (whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is entirely subjective. i think it's both, actually). Pride and Prejudice is most certainly *not* a romance novel in the contemporary sense of the term, because while it is centred around Elizabeth/Darcy, Elizabeth/Darcy is not the *only* point of story. The fact that it isn't the only point is underlined by Austen when she reports the final reunion scene in a paragraph - can you imagine this in a romance novel, where the reunion *is* the payoff? Same for Jane Eyre (which I don't actually like. everytime she speaks, I'm like - 'shut up and die!'. but it's a great novel), which is admittedly more romance-oriented, but even here the payoff is 'reader, I married him'. The emphasis is not on 'married', but 'I' - 'reader, *I* married him'.

I think, what shipfic does is cater to the need for a good love story in those of us who never found them in the mainstream. Because while shipfic does not consider issues other than romance, it does do the romance very, very well, often managing to say things the source text could not.

You were right - this is a controversial topic. *g*

Swatkat

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I think, what shipfic does is cater to the need for a good love story in those of us who never found them in the mainstream. Because while shipfic does not consider issues other than romance, it does do the romance very, very well, often managing to say things the source text could not.

I think so too - and part of the attraction is adding the romance onto an already sturdy plot and interesting characters, a plot so sturdy that you can actually strip it down and rebuild it in a different shape with the same bits in new spots if you feel like it.

Pro 'romance' genre fic has no such sturdy plot or characterization from which to work and draw inspiration.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

From what you're describing, I probably wouldn't classify Pride and Prejudice as a romance, then.

I think, what shipfic does is cater to the need for a good love story in those of us who never found them in the mainstream. Because while shipfic does not consider issues other than romance, it does do the romance very, very well, often managing to say things the source text could not.

Oh, I understand this completely, and I don't disagree with you.

What I'm trying (not very articulately) is something else. Not so much that I dislike shipfic (because I do like it) or look down on it (because I don't), but that I think it's very strange and perplexing that what seems like 99% of fanfic *is* shipfic.

Defenders of fanfic like to say that they're motivated by wanting to ask "what if" questions about characters or a fictional universe, but if that's true, why does it seem like the only "what if" question most people care about is "what if so-and-so got together with so-and-so"?

Are our imaginations really so limited?

[sk56.livejournal.com]

I just want to complain that the really good discussions all seem to start up when I'm leaving town and will be away from my computer for a few days.



There are way more ideas here than I can even start to consider right now, but it's certainly given me something to think about on the train...

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

We're not going anywhere. *g*

[labellamafia494.livejournal.com]

Yes, this was definitely interesting to read. And think about!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

ICON LOVE!

iedefender

[(Anonymous)]

how to kill
how to remove
ie defender
iedefender
xiedefender
ie defender malware
ie defender spyware

paul@castlecops.com
support@castlecops.com
admin@castlecops.com
enquiries@securitycadets.com
andy@securitycadets.com
purchases@securitycadets.com