Sleepy and incoherent

[swatkat]

Today's metafandom is full of discussions on March- whether or not it is fanfic, and why; whether it is somehow 'better' than what we understand as fanfic; what makes it 'better', if we assume it to be so, etc etc. My first instinct, of course, is to call March fanfic. And while I shouldn't comment on something I haven't actually read, I don't think it's even particularly interesting fanfic. Because in re-telling Mr. March's story, Brooke is telling us the story of an ordinary, sensitive man in times of war (who also happens to be Mr. March, the father of Jo March) – and how many times have we heard that story again? Little Women OTOH is about those left behind, about the *women* left behind, and that, to me, is a more interesting story than the same old Man vs. War story.

This is not to say I'm *against* re-telling stories. No, of course not. Would I be in fandom if I were? It's just that unless Brooke has managed to give us some new and interesting perspective on the old Man vs. War story, or on the Little Women universe (which I love dearly. someday I shall write a post on how this book changed my life. no, really – it did.) in her fic, I don't really care much about it.

*

And because I'm slightly (*cough*) obsessed with Wicked these days, I naturally started thinking whether you could call Wicked fanfiction. And I was quite astonished by my own answer to the question – I actually hesitated to call it fanfic, though it very clearly is a derivative work (a brilliant AU, if you like). Or 'just' fanfic. Which has a horribly derogatory ring to it, and that is so not what I meant to say. I think what I wanted to say is that fanfic – or to be more specific, shipfic, with its hyperfocus on romance and sex - often does not consider any other issue than romance (not that there's anything wrong with it), which maybe alright for the *fans* of that particular universe, but probably not so for everyone else. Does that at all make sense? *is hopelessly muddled*

P.S - GIP. Okay, so this is not a scene from the book. But Glinda sobbing over Elphaba's hat? There is no bad there. *sigh*

Comments

[nell65.livejournal.com]

And oh, yeah - I have no trouble thinking of lots of things as 'fanfic' - including many, many, many published and filmed things. Like the "making light' folks, I think that the biggest challenge for the amature/gifting network of contemporary fanfic and the wider contermporary world around it, is that what makes it (to many) 'right' or 'wrong' is largely an artifact of copyright law, and has little or nothing to do with the creative impulse itself, or the results.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. However -- and I may be jumping off into something controversial here -- I feel that the "pro" fanfic (that is, the stuff that gets published because it deals with material for which the copyright has expired) also tends to be a *lot* less shippy than the amateur stuff, and that may be part of the reason why swatkat24 was having trouble seeing some of it as fanfic at all. Almost none of the pro fanfic I can think of simply adds in "missing romance". Rather the authors reinterpret the canon universe in a much more substantive way -- often, in a way that can be seen as a critique or reversal of the original's worldview. (There are exceptions, of course -- there's a very successful series of books that pairs off Sherlock Holmes with an OFC in what strikes me as a very typically "fanfic" kind of way.)

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic? Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original? Most filmed versions of Last of the Mohicans, fer instance?

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story - rather like the 'pro' fanfic. And I'm quite wary of many film adaptations of novels because of the weird ways they handle the romance, especially if the story originally had a female lead w/out a romance, or a romance that was problematic in some way.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

Yes.

Or filmed versions of novels which often force in romance (excpet when they cut it!) that wasn't in the original?

I wasn't thinking of these as fanfic, no. Although I suppose they're also derivative works so maybe we *should* include them in the discussion.

Because, at least the novel-length fanfics I've read, do have lots of plot - though often it is ultimatly *also* a romance story, it isn't *only* a romance story

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic. Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending). In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

[(Anonymous)]

I see a difference between most of these and most "pro" fanfic.

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts. And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

Novel-length amateur fanfic may contain plot, but the plot is usually still subordinate in importance to the romance. Often, in fact, it seems like the plot exists *only* to serve the romance (usually by creating some obstacle for the couple that has to be overcome before they get to the happy ending).

Well, I suppose that depends on how you want to cast the story. I was reading some blog or other the other day, where the writer was positing that Jane Austen and Charloette Bronte were *really* just writing extended H/C romance fic. I think of Pride and Prejudice in many ways - but h/c romance isn't actually one of them! (It works slightly better for Jane Eyre, but not really. Rochester is permanently humbled and Jane grows - permanently - in power, which makes them equal - which doesn't really seem quite the same to me as a torture/healing sex scenario in the classic fanfic h/c formula anyway.....)

In the pro fanfic I've come across, the priority seems to be reversed: the plot is primary, and the romance is there to add flavor and/or depth to the characters.

Hmm. I haven't read a lot of it, but given the soap-operaish summaries of the contortions of the Star Wars EU universe - it *sounds* like a lot of that is really plot for the sake of smexing up the various characters.

The one ST franchise novel I've read, while not a romance per se, is, mostly, plot for the sake of exploring Jim Kirk's dad and his relationships with his officers and his sons. It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships - it is even one of the 'in the nick of time' rescues that ends up 'off the record' due to various 'top sekrit stuff' so that it doesn't warp canon.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Possibly - but the 'pro' stuff, presumably anyway, is skiming the cream of what publishers think will sell - not representative of the mass of attempts.

That might explain why it's better-written than most fanfic, but I'm not sure how it would explain the difference in the tendency to focus on romance.

And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Actually, very little. Moreover, the only real "romance" the main character has is (1) extremely brief and (2) arguably just a plot device to set up something else that the author felt was more important.

As for Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre as h/c romance...I'll have to defer to you on that one. I started Pride and Prejudice in high school and wasn't able to sustain enough interest in it to finish, and I've never attempted Jane Eyre. However, I never got the impression that h/c in fanfic was inconsistent with the characters being equals.

But the pro fanfic examples I had in mind were, in addition to Wicked, things like the innumerable Sherlock Holmes stories that have been written over the years, all the different King Arthur/Grail books, horror fiction that plays in H.P. Lovecraft's universe, Tarzan, Dracula, etc. While some of these certainly include a romance as part of the plot (such as the Arthur/Guenevere(sp?)/Lancelot triangle), romance doesn't seem to be the the primary focus. It's an element of something larger, not the ultimate point.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

However, I never got the impression that h/c in fanfic was inconsistent with the characters being equals.

Heh - no, I don't either! I just meant that, at least in the case of Jane Eyre - the 'comfort' part isn't really an equivilent to the 'magickal healing sex' that I tend to think of in the h/c realm - in that Rochester isn't actually 'healed.' He stays blind, and comparatively, helpless and scared, and dependent on Jane's sufferance. It is a kind of h/c I suppose - but, my point was, you can re-genre all sorts of things depending on what point you're looking to make.

But the pro fanfic examples I had in mind were, in addition to Wicked, things like the innumerable Sherlock Holmes stories that have been written over the years, all the different King Arthur/Grail books, horror fiction that plays in H.P. Lovecraft's universe, Tarzan, Dracula, etc. While some of these certainly include a romance as part of the plot (such as the Arthur/Guenevere(sp?)/Lancelot triangle), romance doesn't seem to be the the primary focus. It's an element of something larger, not the ultimate point.

Well, I suppose in part it depends on how narrowly we're construing the genre lable 'romance.' For example, most Jane Austen doesnt' actually fit the current publishing house description of romance - though finding a husband is the essential plot of all her books.

There is one way to read LOTR where the entire saga is nothing more than striaght up romance, where Aragon overcomes obstacles to win Arwen and live happily ever after for the rest of his life. It certainly isn't the only way, or probably even one of the dominent ways to read that text - but I've seen it used as a way to dismiss the story by those who don't like it.

So this creates a bit a naming problem when talking about fanfic/derivative fic as well - what do you mean by 'romance'? and how central to the story does the romance have to be to push a story from 'about something else with romance on teh side,' to 'romance mostly, with something else on the side'?

I'm not a horror fan, so I've never read Lovecraft, much less anything remotely fanficcish for it! As for the rest - well, some of the King Arthur/Grail books I've read *are* what *I* would call romance - and not always the classic triangle either, there is one entire series devoted to Merlin's POV in which Merlin's decision to become sexually active and fall in love is the root cause of hte loss of Camelot, much like MZB's Mists of Avalon, only in her story it's Mordred's mother's sexual/romantic decisions that drive the fall - and, some aren't, same with Dracula.

With the Sherlock Holmes fanfic - as it happens, the only SH I've read not written by Doyle is the fanfic with the OFC who marries Holmes himself! I'm really not sure what the 'rest' of the SH world of "pro" fic is like - though I gather a lot of the actual online stuff isn't published b/c its all m/m romance featuring Holmes and Watson!

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Moreover, the only real "romance" the main character has is (1) extremely brief and (2) arguably just a plot device to set up something else that the author felt was more important.


My ship is text!!!!1!

...

You know, I may be getting slightly rabid about this.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

And, anyway, it sounds from the bits and pieces of Wicked that I've picked up that it has plenty of sex in it, even if it isn't fluffy happy stuff.

Oh there's sex alright - a lot, by some people's standards (not mine. I think there's very little sex, actually), but there's a difference. I can't really explain - you'll have to read it and see for yourself. *eg* The book is *not* about the pr0n, no matter what idiot reviewers at amazon say.

It's not 'romance,' but it has no other real purpse except to explore relationships

A lot of genfic does that too.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Yep - so, what is the difference, exactly? And why does it seem to matter so much sometimes?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Then there's the rumored new Alan Moore piece which apparently only exists as an excuse to sex up Dorothy, Alice and some one I forget..... and an exciting OT3 f/f/f smush.

I would so read that. *facepalm*

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

Just don't include Toto. Please!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

that was me, forgetting to sign iin....

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

OK! I've replied to you above, although you won't get the notification since you weren't signed in.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Most filmed versions of Last of the Mohicans, fer instance?

Bleagh. I've seen the Daniel Day-Lewis version, and I HATE IT!

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Really? I LOVE the DDL version! *g* A good girl friend and I used to get together to watch it in grad school whenever we were feeling particularly down - and drink way too much red wine and sigh and giggle like mad things. But then, I have a weakness for sweeping romantic costume films with sexy leads and romantic scores.

It has nothing much to do with the original version, of course, other than setting and some character names - (which honestly, isn't the worst thing ever, Cooper was not our finest novelist.....).

Someday, of course, I'd love someone to film it with teh book romance at the heart of it, Cora and Uncas, but who knows when that will happen.

What don't you like about it?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

What don't you like about it?

The fact that it has nothing to do with the book. It was one of my favourite childhood adventure stories, and they turned it into a romance! And the story is about Cora and Uncus, not Hawkeye (wasn't that what he's called? haven't read it in a while)! Sorry - I'm slightly irrational about these things.

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Well - are you comparing the novel-length gift-fanfic to the novel-length pro fanfic?

And why only novel-length fic? Short stories do the same thing.

[nell65.livejournal.com]

Oh yes - but I was thinking that comparing the pornish PWP to something like Wicked was hardly fair. I don't think that is what we're doing, but I wanted to make sure. And to be honest, I haven't read that many short-story pro fanfics.......

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

Oh yes - but I was thinking that comparing the pornish PWP to something like Wicked was hardly fair.

No, of course not. We could compare pornish PWP with mainstream erotica(which I don't read at all, so I really couldn't say. but yeah).

And to be honest, I haven't read that many short-story pro fanfics.......

Heh. True. I was comparing short fanfic to short origfic, and that's not what we're taking about here. Oops?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

However -- and I may be jumping off into something controversial here -- I feel that the "pro" fanfic (that is, the stuff that gets published because it deals with material for which the copyright has expired) also tends to be a *lot* less shippy than the amateur stuff, and that may be part of the reason why swatkat24 was having trouble seeing some of it as fanfic at all.

And here is the thing - I LIKE shipfic. Sometimes, it's all I read (though I do love genfic). But I do think that shipfic, with it's focus on romance only, misses out on a lot of other things (whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is entirely subjective. i think it's both, actually). Pride and Prejudice is most certainly *not* a romance novel in the contemporary sense of the term, because while it is centred around Elizabeth/Darcy, Elizabeth/Darcy is not the *only* point of story. The fact that it isn't the only point is underlined by Austen when she reports the final reunion scene in a paragraph - can you imagine this in a romance novel, where the reunion *is* the payoff? Same for Jane Eyre (which I don't actually like. everytime she speaks, I'm like - 'shut up and die!'. but it's a great novel), which is admittedly more romance-oriented, but even here the payoff is 'reader, I married him'. The emphasis is not on 'married', but 'I' - 'reader, *I* married him'.

I think, what shipfic does is cater to the need for a good love story in those of us who never found them in the mainstream. Because while shipfic does not consider issues other than romance, it does do the romance very, very well, often managing to say things the source text could not.

You were right - this is a controversial topic. *g*

Swatkat

[nell65.livejournal.com]

I think, what shipfic does is cater to the need for a good love story in those of us who never found them in the mainstream. Because while shipfic does not consider issues other than romance, it does do the romance very, very well, often managing to say things the source text could not.

I think so too - and part of the attraction is adding the romance onto an already sturdy plot and interesting characters, a plot so sturdy that you can actually strip it down and rebuild it in a different shape with the same bits in new spots if you feel like it.

Pro 'romance' genre fic has no such sturdy plot or characterization from which to work and draw inspiration.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

From what you're describing, I probably wouldn't classify Pride and Prejudice as a romance, then.

I think, what shipfic does is cater to the need for a good love story in those of us who never found them in the mainstream. Because while shipfic does not consider issues other than romance, it does do the romance very, very well, often managing to say things the source text could not.

Oh, I understand this completely, and I don't disagree with you.

What I'm trying (not very articulately) is something else. Not so much that I dislike shipfic (because I do like it) or look down on it (because I don't), but that I think it's very strange and perplexing that what seems like 99% of fanfic *is* shipfic.

Defenders of fanfic like to say that they're motivated by wanting to ask "what if" questions about characters or a fictional universe, but if that's true, why does it seem like the only "what if" question most people care about is "what if so-and-so got together with so-and-so"?

Are our imaginations really so limited?

[nell65.livejournal.com]

For this, I'd point to the slashers and their passionate defense of m/m in particular and fanfic more broadly as a wonderful explosion of heretofore self censored and squashed female writer to female reader erotica.

There is still a massive sense of self discovery and excitement going on there with respect to that, and, maybe, as that excitement winds down over the next bit of time - fanfic types and subjects will diversify.

Of course, I don't know what I'd call what I write now. I'm more interested in exploring the dynamics of male/female relationships than in a lot of other things, just in this moment anyway - but does that mean what I write is all romance? Not that I'd mind particularly if it were......, but - is it?

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

For this, I'd point to the slashers and their passionate defense of m/m in particular and fanfic more broadly as a wonderful explosion of heretofore self censored and squashed female writer to female reader erotica.

But from the POV I'm trying to articulate here, m/m and het (and f/f) are exactly the same thing! It's *all* shipping, and hence all actually stereotypically female in focus. Accordingly, I tend to think that those people who are trumpeting slashfic as a step forward for women are both right but *also* in many ways wrong.

Of course, I don't know what I'd call what I write now. I'm more interested in exploring the dynamics of male/female relationships than in a lot of other things, just in this moment anyway - but does that mean what I write is all romance? Not that I'd mind particularly if it were......, but - is it?

I don't know. I've only read a handful of completed stories by you, so it's actually rather hard to judge. I'd classify at least some of what I've seen as gen.

But my examination is just as much aimed at myself as it is other fen: I've written my fair share of shipfic. But in some ways I feel like I slid into it because that was the preexisting template of fandom before I arrived. When you join a fandom, people *expect* you to pick an OTP and write about that, or to experiment by putting together unconventional pairings. But I wonder if my inclinations would have been the same without the fannish culture being what it is.